Eletromotion Demo Questions

[meddesigner]

My quest for a new speaker system has lead me to look at the Martin Logan Eletromotion ESL. I have been listening to them at my local Best Buy with source material I am very familiar with but am concerned about a few things I am hearing and wanted to get some input. Since all Best Buy has is A/V receivers this is what we had to listen to along with a carousel disc player. Also note that I am only interested in two channel performance as I am not interested in home theater.

1. The first thing I took away was they appear to be very placement sensitive. We messed around with it a bit but I never obtained what I felt was a good solid image. In fact, on a source I am very familiar with, the vocal appeared to be panned to far to the right. I checked on my current home system and all was well. While at the store i had them check if the A/V receiver was applying any type of processing applied or of the settings could be affecting this. The rep said it was flat and on “pure direct” but we could never fix this. The issue is not in the recording so I am leaning toward placement. Thoughts?
   
2. At times I felt the system was overly bright have with other Martin Logan systems. The last time I seriously considered a ML system was in the early 90’s with the Sequel II’s and then the Quests. I held off and considered a pair or Aerius i’s in the late 90’s. I ended up with Magnepan 1.6’s and keep those to about three years ago. Thoughts on brightness and it’s relation to not only placement, but the A/V receivers being used?
   
3. What type of amplification would you use. My option are to use an Aragon 8002 or purchase a McIntosh MC275 Mk V. I was going to get a set of Magnepan 1.7’s but just do not want door sized speakers in my room anymore. The Martin Logan size wise is a comfortable fit. Plus, with an addition of a low frequency driver, it appears it will give better low end than the Magnepan would. How would one compare the Eletromotion ESL or any MArtin Logan to the imaging of the Magnepan.
   
4. Is there any other speaker in the ML line you would suggest I consider new or pre-owned?

My frustration with this process is Best Buy is not the place to buy speakers like this. You can tell absolutely nothing about the product and I would think Martin Logan would want to showcase their speakers in a better light. Unfortunately, we no longer have a local dealer I care for. If your not going to spend 20K on speakers and electronics then forget it. I checked on the ML web site and I have no dealer anywhere near me and those that are in a 250 mile radius are non-stocking dealers that appear to work out of their homes. Any advice you can give will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the help in advance -
Richard in Nashville

 

[roberto]

My quest for a new speaker system has lead me to look at the Martin Logan Eletromotion ESL. I have been listening to them at my local Best Buy with source material I am very familiar with but am concerned about a few things I am hearing and wanted to get some input. Since all Best Buy has is A/V receivers this is what we had to listen to along with a carousel disc player. Also note that I am only interested in two channel performance as I am not interested in home theater.

1. The first thing I took away was they appear to be very placement sensitive. We messed around with it a bit but I never obtained what I felt was a good solid image. In fact, on a source I am very familiar with, the vocal appeared to be panned to far to the right. I checked on my current home system and all was well. While at the store i had them check if the A/V receiver was applying any type of processing applied or of the settings could be affecting this. The rep said it was flat and on “pure direct” but we could never fix this. The issue is not in the recording so I am leaning toward placement. Thoughts?
   
2. At times I felt the system was overly bright have with other Martin Logan systems. The last time I seriously considered a ML system was in the early 90’s with the Sequel II’s and then the Quests. I held off and considered a pair or Aerius i’s in the late 90’s. I ended up with Magnepan 1.6’s and keep those to about three years ago. Thoughts on brightness and it’s relation to not only placement, but the A/V receivers being used?
   
3. What type of amplification would you use. My option are to use an Aragon 8002 or purchase a McIntosh MC275 Mk V. I was going to get a set of Magnepan 1.7’s but just do not want door sized speakers in my room anymore. The Martin Logan size wise is a comfortable fit. Plus, with an addition of a low frequency driver, it appears it will give better low end than the Magnepan would. How would one compare the Eletromotion ESL or any MArtin Logan to the imaging of the Magnepan.
   
4. Is there any other speaker in the ML line you would suggest I consider new or pre-owned?

My frustration with this process is Best Buy is not the place to buy speakers like this. You can tell absolutely nothing about the product and I would think Martin Logan would want to showcase their speakers in a better light. Unfortunately, we no longer have a local dealer I care for. If your not going to spend 20K on speakers and electronics then forget it. I checked on the ML web site and I have no dealer anywhere near me and those that are in a 250 mile radius are non-stocking dealers that appear to work out of their homes. Any advice you can give will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the help in advance -
Richard in Nashville

Hola Richard. Everything it is a matter of taste. As an example, one thing that ML does not have is when you listen vocals, you do not have one vocal note where you almost see the "tonsils" at the singer throat and then the next musical note you are back to your seat...please do not get me wrong here, I was a Timpany 3B user long time ago and sold many magneplanar like MG-1,SMGs, MG-II, etc, and older models...if there will be no ML, then my option sure would be Magnepan. Just think of this: the diaphram of ML weights less than the air that it moves. The musical instruments are so precise and clear, the air between them and how easy is to understand the left hand and the right hand of a piano player. Aragon or McIntosch, will be just fine to drive any ML. The Electromotion is a great speaker, but also it is the smallest in the chain of ML electrostatic product. This also does not means that you can not have super great sound out of them...yes, you can. But you have to take time due to ML is a truly dipole speaker. Position with respect of their back wall is very important. You can play with this. Usually 2 to 3 feet away of their back wall is just enough. Room treatment is a must too. You have to listen some time and search what do you like most. Just moving any ML electrostatic one inch toe in or toe out from its position, will make a difference. Because of the light weight of the diaphragm, will show any electronic device and cables too. As a starting point, 1/3 of the inner part of the diaphragm should be facing your seating position. This is a start point. Toe in will move your chair closer to the stage, toe out will move your chair apart of the stage. Just choose the position that you liked most and enjoy the clear, transparent, right with size and air between instruments, and three-dimensional of the sound. Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Robferguson]

ML VS Magnapan

Hi, I am fairly new to this forum but I read your post and flashed back to when I was purchasing my first pair of Mls last year. I was pretty set on the Maggie 1.7s. The addition of the super tweeter gave them the extreme top end that my MG 12s were missing. I began shopping used as I hate the depreciation of new gear and listened and nearly purchased several different models including Aerius and Odysseys for nearly the same price used as the Maggies were new. They retailed for about $6500 new when they were sold. What I experienced was the MLs had a better center image, better bass, and the biggest difference was spot on vocals, male or female, and dynamics like conventional speakers. The efficiency was also higher for the ML. The Maggies are great speakers. The 12s were my third pair of them in the past 10 years. Compaired to the ML's the Maggies sound flatter unless you own a mega moster mega $$$amp.

BTW, I ended up getting very lucky, and paying $2,300 for a pair of Prodigys and never looked back. Placement is critical, spreading them apart by the distance to the listening area seems to works for me, if they are 3+ feet from the front and side walls.

Lastly, I heard a pair of Claritys at Best Buy and they sounded compressed. After researching the brand it was clear that new purchases need close to 100 hours of break in before coming into their zone. Another benefit of buying used! Good luck with your search...

 

[SteveInNC]

If it's a Best Buy Magnolia store, they tend to be a bit better about the room that they put speakers in, but not like a boutique audio place.

For ML electrostatics in general, you want them toe'd out so that roughly the inner half of the panel is aimed at you. The classic test for this is to aim a small flashlight at the panels from your seating position. It will cast a vertical line on the panels. Turn the speakers out such that the line is at the break between the inner and middle thirds of the panel.

ML electrostatics have an unusual impedance curve. It falls off toward 0.8 ohms as the sound frequency increases. This can play hell with solid state amps that don't have high stability and/or current-handling capability. Assuming that the speakers you demo'ed have been played long enough to have broken-in some, I'd have the Best Buy people swap various amps into the mix - even different brands of AVR may help.

re: brightness. MLs are very clear, particularly in mid-range. Some people interpret this as "bright" because they've never really heard that clarity before in other speakers. You've had Maggies, so you have more experience with this type of sound than typical listeners, so I'd suspect the electronics driving the MLs aren't up to it. Different brands have very different sonic characteristics, depending on what the manufacturer likes (despite everyone claiming neutral reproduction). An older Sony ES receiver I have (when "ES" was still a premium marque) sounds much different than the later versions like the DA nnES series, and they all sound different than Denon, etc. The "carousel disc player" would also throw a red flag for me. It probably has the cheapest electronics in the audio chain. If it's Magnolia, they should have some of the higher-end Denon disc players around. Even a lowly 1920 will sound better than a commodity carousel.

Often too, what seemed like good recordings are exposed as crap in highly-detailed reproduction ala panels. One of my better test discs is "Avalon" by Roxy Music. Both the standard CD and SACD are recorded very well, and give a good range of vocal and instrumental mix, along with some good dynamics. It's recorded much like a good jazz disc, and sounds great on MLs. I have Ascent "I"s in one house and Sources in another. I bought the Sources right before they announced the Electromotions (sigh...). I'm debating getting Electromotions to replace them, then move the Sources to surround on my Ascent system which doubles as HT.

I haven't heard the Electromotions yet, but most mid-range and down MLs are greatly aided by the addition of a sub. It really rounds out the sound and dynamics for percussive instruments.

 

[Audionirvana]

This is the best way to set them up. When I was at the Magnolia store I had to adjust them. I agree with break in, to me my speakers when I got home where a tad brighter, so letting them run for some time is good. Most stores most likely haven't done this yet as they are so new.

Vantages are great if you can find a good used price, I would have went this route and was going to drive to get a pair of slightly used ones but guy backed out of taking the trip. So I decided to listen to the ESL's and since these are my secondary speaker I went this route and saved some $$. Extended bass and a smoother sound come with the Vantages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OHWP6Bq8rHw

 

[audvidmaster]

Congratulations on your new Electromotions! Everyone has made excellent comments, and I will only emphasize that I've found the wiring used to make a huge difference. Remember that all designs of electrostatic speakers are power hungry, so you not only have to have a quality amp sending out the energy, you have to transmit that energy to the speakers with quality cables. You can't provide the fireman with the water he needs if you limit him to the garden hose.

 

[lodom]

My option are to use an Aragon 8002 or purchase a McIntosh MC275 Mk V.

Richard,

I don't know if you own the Aragon 8002 or not, but I owned this amp for about a year or so. I used it to power Vandersteen 2's & 3's and a pair of Totem Hawks. I read reviews of it that were positive and assumed it to be a good amp, but I noticed that it was unable to resolve very complex passages of music in some of my CDs and there was a harshness to the high end frequencies. It had great low end control and good soundstaging, but I never realized how overall poor it was until I purchased a Plinius 9100, which eliminated the problems I was experincing. I just wanted to let you know my experience.

I was not alone in my findings. I had a coworker who used an Aragon to power his Acoustat electrostatics, and replaced with a McCormak DNA1. He was never fond of the high-end harshness either, even using a Conrad Johnson preamp.

 

[Gordon]

An ESL is going to require precise positioning to obtain an accurate stage. Toe, tilt and distance from front and side walls all play a part in a proper presentation.

It is interesting you mention a McIntosh 275. Some of us have had mixed feelings about this amp on an ESL. While the mids were to die for, the top rolls of a bit too much for me thereby negating a lot of capability of the panel. I had a pair of them for audition on my Spires and ended up going SS with the 501's due to the above mentioned roll off. They did "look" great in the rack

Perhaps this might not be the case with this new line of speakers so if you can audition one, you may find my findings out to lunch. Care to be the guinea pig?! I'd like to hear you thoughts.

Gordon

 

[Cat Blu]

My quest for a new speaker system has lead me to look at the Martin Logan Eletromotion ESL. I have been listening to them at my local Best Buy with source material I am very familiar with but am concerned about a few things I am hearing and wanted to get some input. Since all Best Buy has is A/V receivers this is what we had to listen to along with a carousel disc player. Also note that I am only interested in two channel performance as I am not interested in home theater.

1. The first thing I took away was they appear to be very placement sensitive. We messed around with it a bit but I never obtained what I felt was a good solid image. In fact, on a source I am very familiar with, the vocal appeared to be panned to far to the right. I checked on my current home system and all was well. While at the store i had them check if the A/V receiver was applying any type of processing applied or of the settings could be affecting this. The rep said it was flat and on “pure direct” but we could never fix this. The issue is not in the recording so I am leaning toward placement. Thoughts?

1. 
   
   Hi Richard
   
   This seams a familiar senario - My husband and I purchased these on the weekend, did a quick setup and watched a few movices, shows and listened to some albums till the wee morning hours. We decided to tweak the position the next day and the resulting sounds were very onesided! Tried the settings in the receiver, reran YPOD and still off! Tempers were getting short and then it clicked! We moved the speakers! The plugs are not very secure and all was beautiful when I reseeded the plug:ROFL:.
   
   I am in love with these speakers! Very detailed and enchanting. It is like I lost 30 years because of what I now hear again! They are still somewhat bright and the bass is a bit muddy as yet so I am waiting for the break in to be complete. Must mentioned that my speakers were the floor model so my break in period is half done when we got them home.
   
   I use them for music during the day and movies at night. :bowdown:

 

[Len44]

For ML electrostatics in general, you want them toe'd out so that roughly the inner half of the panel is aimed at you.

"toe'd out"?

 

[SteveInNC]

"toe'd out"?

Absolutely. The center of the speakers should be shooting a bit wide of your prime seating position. The curve in the panels gives them a broader horizontal spread than other planar speakers. You'll still have roughly two thirds of the surface beaming in your general direction. (I misspoke saying inner-half; if you get the light beam at the division between the inner one-third and middle portions of the panel, that makes the inner/middle two-thirds pointing in your general direction.

You can search back through a number of ancient threads about positioning MLs like this.

 

[Len44]

Absolutely. The center of the speakers should be shooting a bit wide of your prime seating position. The curve in the panels gives them a broader horizontal spread than other planar speakers. You'll still have roughly two thirds of the surface beaming in your general direction. (I misspoke saying inner-half; if you get the light beam at the division between the inner one-third and middle portions of the panel, that makes the inner/middle two-thirds pointing in your general direction.

You can search back through a number of ancient threads about positioning MLs like this.

OK. Really not trying to pick a fight here...and I do acknowledge there has been a user or two that have tried the tow out positioning of their speakers. And perhaps there is some issue with terminology here (toe in vs toe out)...

However, my ref for the toe in relates to what is stated in the ML manuals, also known loosely as the "Jim Power flashlight toe in method," as in this thread: http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125&highlight

 

[Rich]

Definitely toe-IN. It is impossible to toe the speakers out and have a flashlight reflect off the inner third of the panel back to the listener. If you toe out, none of the speaker panel is aimed directly at the listener. Steve, you are correct that the center of the panel should be shooting a bit wide of the listening position, but I think you are incorrectly calling that toe-out. Tell me, when you are positioning the speakers, and you have them set up facing flat forward, do you turn them slightly inward from that position, or slightly outward, to achieve proper toe? Slightly inward is toe-in, slightly outward is toe-out. If you turned them slightly outward from a flat forward position, none of the panel would be hitting the center listening position.

 

[SteveInNC]

This is a terminology problem. When people set up box speakers, they generally point them directly at the prime listening position. If you draw a line perpendicular from the plane of the speaker, it would intersect the prime listening spot. For MLs, you want to turn the speakers out relative to that line such that they are aimed wide of the listening position, thus toe'd out relative to the direct radiant.

 

[Len44]

Ah, as suspected, a terminology issue.

Nice when we can all be "right" -- whatever that is...

 

[repman]

This is a terminology problem. When people set up box speakers, they generally point them directly at the prime listening position. If you draw a line perpendicular from the plane of the speaker, it would intersect the prime listening spot. For MLs, you want to turn the speakers out relative to that line such that they are aimed wide of the listening position, thus toe'd out relative to the direct radiant.

This is a picture of Toe in from a Martin Logan setup manual so we are all on the same page as to what it would look like from a center perspective

 

[Len44]

A picture is indeed worth a thousand words, or so I hear...

Nice touch posting the pic.

 

[repman]

A picture is indeed worth a thousand words, or so I hear...

Nice touch posting the pic.

Thanks Len I was still a bit confused by SteveInNC post explaining himself.
As you say a picture might clear it up for all

 

[SteveInNC]

Thanks Len I was still a bit confused by SteveInNC post explaining himself.
As you say a picture might clear it up for all

It's my Southern accent...

 

[Len44]

It's my Southern accent...

Figures... j/k

Thanks for playing along...