Electro-Mechanical Aspects

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DonAudio

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Fancy title; thought it might attract some welcome attention. I haven't found a lot of technical information on the construction of the speaker. For example, the electronics. Where can I find the most technical description of the speakers, their design and components? It's probably already on this sight, right? Any help would be appreciated.

CAP, would I be right in saying that MLO is the most comprehensive site on the net involving coverage of ML speakers? Has Gayle Sanders participated in this site?
 
Well, if you really want to learn about ESL construction, please purchase a copy of Roger Sanders book called "Electrostatic Loudspeaker Design Cookbook"

That one covers all the bases and then some.

Another good resource for ESL techniques and technology is the DIYAudio.com ESL sub-forum. Lot's of bright builders there.

And of course, our own DIY section, where we've had plenty of down-and-dirty mods and enhancements done to ML's. Lot's of pics in some of the threads, including my complete design and construction of an active center channel based on a highly modified SL3.
 
Thanks guys for your responses. Jonathan, in particular I was referring to ML construction in particular, CLS design preferably.
 
Fancy title; thought it might attract some welcome attention. I haven't found a lot of technical information on the construction of the speaker. For example, the electronics. Where can I find the most technical description of the speakers, their design and components? It's probably already on this sight, right? Any help would be appreciated.

CAP, would I be right in saying that MLO is the most comprehensive site on the net involving coverage of ML speakers? Has Gayle Sanders participated in this site?

It might be a real challenge to get any technical details pertaining to the design and construction of ML current speakers.

You might try doing a patent search but most companies know that if you issue a patent for your "secret formula" you not only disclose everything about it... it also becomes public domain after 20 years.

The formula for Coke-a-Cola is an example and many companies just guard their proprietary processes as "trade secrets".

Taking a speaker apart is probably the fastest way to get your answer.
 
As Peter points out, reading the orginal ML patent will reveal some things.

But having toured the factory, I can tell you, not everything is in print. Much of ML's 'secret sauce' is not just in the finsihed product but in how it is produced.

Some of the assembly techniques and jigs used are unique and very, very hard (or expensive) to replicate as a DIY. Cheaper to just buy used ML and 'mod' as needed.

What are you trying to acomplish? or just looking to learn?
 
Yes Jonathan, looking to understand their construction. The technical limitations of the speaker from a electro mechanical aspect.
 
I’ll assume you understand the basic principles of ESL operation, and are interested in specifics about the CLS.

While I’ve not done a careful study or analysis of the CLS, I can share the following general points about ML ESL’s as I’ve learned them over the years.

All membrane panel speakers are a series of design compromises (as is any speaker). The most relevant are the relationship between radiating surface and volume. The bigger the surface, the louder and lower it will play. One reason why a CLS can get away without a sub a moderate volumes.
But as we increase radiating surfaces, there is a need to manage resonances on the membranes. One reason why you never see a single large panel without any sub-divisions is that the resonances would be horrible. A CLS is sub-divided into sections that are optimized for resonant frequencies for bass, mid-bass and highs. Even smaller panel ML’s have their spars spaced such that there is a relatively even distribution of resonances.
BTW- this is one reason why SoundLab uses a matrix of cells (of varying sizes), vs single large panels that are subdivided by spars.

The next physical aspect of the speaker is the tension at which the membrane is held and the electro-motive forces the electrostatic field can apply. This impacts resonances (too loose and it ‘kazoo’s’), as well as SPL abilities (too low a field strength and it can’t play loud). As you might imagine, all of the above interact a good bit.

The hardest part to get right on basic ESL construction is the even tension of the Mylar across the stators. That’s where construction tools and techniques are so critical, and why I basically recommend getting the panels from the factory. No way you or anyone can built them better without huge (I mean six or seven figures) investment.
While it might be nice to think about optimizing Spar locations, the factory designers have been around that loop a few times, and what we have is likely pretty close to optimal.

The other physical aspect we as users have some control over is the physical stability of the radiating panel. This is why there are a variety of CLS ‘Stands’ out there. The best are ones that prevent any panel movement, which to me, would necessitate a top mounted brace to either a ceiling or wall behind for the utmost rigidity.

Finally, control of the radiating pattern of the entire speaker is the final area of physical influence, and one that gets largely ignored, yet is the one that is most in our power to do something about, and the one that has the greatest influence on final sound quality. Most specifically, management of the rear wave dispersion and frequency response.

I’ve written much about this and will not repeat it here, other than to reinforce that it is the single, most important area to focus one’s attentions on. Forget amps, forget cables, tweaks and other such stuff until you have taken care of the speaker to room interface.

OK, on to the electrical aspects.

As noted earlier, the voltages provided to maintain the strength of the electrostatic field have a big impact, but mostly on SPL ability. Using some Variac’s I’ve played with changing these, and results are non-conclusive, but a best, slightly lower the SPL by 2db or so.
Mods to the ESL force to raise the potential might have benefits, but you could be exceeding the calculated forces used to decide where spars go and skew the sound by engaging new resonances. But it is an area to play with.

Next is the panel audio step-up transformer. This is an area that I’ve yet to experiment with, but should have audible results. See this thread: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=6090

Finally, there is the crossover section to mess with, where changes to resistors, caps and inductors all will have an effect on phase, frequency and resistance. Some will improve the speaker to amp synergy, others will affect the speakers frequency response. Much has been written about passive mods, and they are topics I’m no expert on, so I’ll not comment further on passives.

I’ve specialized in active crossovers as I believe they provide much better end results, are easier to experiment with and provide a host of options, like EQ, that are much, much harder to do in passive designs.

Finally, one of the most effective ‘mods’ is to actually do time and frequency domain room correction to the entire speaker/room interface using tools such as the Audyssey room correction. In my custom designed, acoustically treated room, with highly modified active crossover ML’s, adding Audyssey from my Denon AVP-A1HD preamp was the final icing on the cake. Huge improvement.

Coffee is finally wearing off, so signing off for now.
 
Well said Jon. You have a wonderful way of putting words on paper to make sense. The CLS is as Jon said a Hybrid of panels. It has 3 sections that are all in one if you can think that way. The bass sections are larger and the mids are spaced to give the best dispersion. The bass sections from a picture appears to be separated by the vertical spars but its not. The last 6 inches on the top and bottom open up to allow the whole panel to work as one in the same phase. The CLS has its very few weakness but they are over shadowed by their strength and the things they do that others cant. As I have said the CLS was way before its time. The amps of then that the CLS needed to run them were either unubtainiam in price or didn't exist. The CLS was not a terribly expensive speaker and people tried to pair it with what was selling then. IT WAS A BAD MIX! With amplifier technology today its far easier to get a quality amp that will handle 1 ohm and not cost as much as your house. Now the CLS as good as it is may not be for everyone. However most will live with its shortcomings as they are few.
 
Jonathan, thank you for your most detailed response. I have a physics and an electronics background and appreciate the content and effort to respond. My CLS's are new to me and I will be investigating them more as I go along. I am working on room placement right now and listening to a lot of music of many different varieties. Toe in, distance from rear wall, closer together, further apart; etc..

I have owned several panels now and in the past; ranging from Maggie MGI's, 1.6QR, Quad ESL 57's, ML Sequel II's, and now my CLS IIZ's. As you said above every speaker is a compromise. I have never heard a cabinet speaker come close to a planar in terms of clarity and soundstage. Dispersion is another matter, but as I most often listen to music by my lonesome (sheds tear here) it does not represent a problem for me.

Most panels have a quality of harshness in the upper frequencies a by-product of resonance or over excursion I would assume. I hear very little of this with the CLS's. I passed over my Sequel II's for this reason. The ESL 57's don't have this problem but don't attack the entire frequency spectrum, a compromise of Mr Walkers I assume (and price point I imagine although his future designs never got any bigger).

Haven't looked yet but here's what I'm imagining the CLS's are designed to do. The box takes the full signal in, filters the lowest frequency by way of a high order low frequency bandwidth filter, adds the voltage signal to a high voltage signal. The signal reaching the panels for most of the frequency range is handled mechanically by the spars to produce sections of panel that operate well in certain frequency ranges based on surface area? Am I close?

Amplitude is a little bit of a compromise with the mechanical spars as it limits excursion of the film in some parts of the upper frenquency range. The film wants to travel further but is a maximum tension.

How am I doing Jonathan?
 
...
Haven't looked yet but here's what I'm imagining the CLS's are designed to do. The box takes the full signal in, filters the lowest frequency by way of a high order low frequency bandwidth filter, adds the voltage signal to a high voltage signal. The signal reaching the panels for most of the frequency range is handled mechanically by the spars to produce sections of panel that operate well in certain frequency ranges based on surface area? Am I close?

Amplitude is a little bit of a compromise with the mechanical spars as it limits excursion of the film in some parts of the upper frenquency range. The film wants to travel further but is a maximum tension.

How am I doing Jonathan?
Hi Don,

First, sorry for the delay responding to this. It got busy at work the past few weeks and I lost track of this one.

You are correct in your analysis of what the CLS electronics box does. Basically a low-pass filter prior to the step-up audio transformer to drive the stators.
The Diaphragm voltage is maintained separately by the HV board.

The entire membrane is driven by a uniform signal, therefore the only remaining thing to do is to manage resonances in such a way that there is an even distribution of modes and the speaker as whole achieves a balanced soundfield. So yes, the effective radiating area segmented by the spars will each have a given resonance(s) ‘tuned’ for a specific range (bass vs highs).

Your are again correct that amplitude in the lower registers will indeed be limited by how closely spaced spars are. Also, there is a limit established by the diaphragm to stator distance as to just how much amplitude can be achieved in the lower registers.

Solving that problem is what the new dualforce panel in the CLX is all about. Now there’s a cool way to solve the ‘how to move cubic liters of air’ problem.
 
Thanks again Jonathan for your detailed response. Looks like your the details guy here. Good to know. CLX's look awesome, although I don't think I'll ever get a chance to hear them without first purchasing. It's so hard to hear something now without commtiing to buy first. Not to mention the necessity of listening with your own equipment in your own soundroom with your own material. LOL. Took me forever to narrow down to what I have now.
 
Posted by: Liquisonic
On: 11-28-2008 08:14 PM

Well hey, I don't know anything about the "wow" factor, but this is an awesome thread, one that tries to "boil things down" if that is even possible. lol Thanks to people like Jon and CAP, my knowledge has increased by a ton, my hat's off to ya!
That being said, I have a copy of "the electrostatic loudspeaker design cookbook" in my possession as we speak, and want to know how much of it is outdated ( in your guy's opinion) and how much of it is "set in stone"
Any comments/opinions?
Thanks a bunch, bros
Steve


The book is still quite relevant, as the basic technology has not changed that much.
The biggest advances have been in Mylar tensioning approaches and Conductive Mylar coatings.
 
Hey Jonathan, do you mind sharing with us the source of your findings in these advances, i.e. mylar tensioning and conductive mylar coatings?

Thanks
 
I’ll assume you understand the basic principles of ESL operation, and are interested in specifics about the CLS.

While I’ve not done a careful study or analysis of the CLS, I can share the following general points about ML ESL’s as I’ve learned them over the years.

All membrane panel speakers are a series of design compromises (as is any speaker). The most relevant are the relationship between radiating surface and volume. The bigger the surface, the louder and lower it will play. One reason why a CLS can get away without a sub a moderate volumes.
But as we increase radiating surfaces, there is a need to manage resonances on the membranes. One reason why you never see a single large panel without any sub-divisions is that the resonances would be horrible. A CLS is sub-divided into sections that are optimized for resonant frequencies for bass, mid-bass and highs. Even smaller panel ML’s have their spars spaced such that there is a relatively even distribution of resonances.
BTW- this is one reason why SoundLab uses a matrix of cells (of varying sizes), vs single large panels that are subdivided by spars.

The next physical aspect of the speaker is the tension at which the membrane is held and the electro-motive forces the electrostatic field can apply. This impacts resonances (too loose and it ‘kazoo’s’), as well as SPL abilities (too low a field strength and it can’t play loud). As you might imagine, all of the above interact a good bit.

The hardest part to get right on basic ESL construction is the even tension of the Mylar across the stators. That’s where construction tools and techniques are so critical, and why I basically recommend getting the panels from the factory. No way you or anyone can built them better without huge (I mean six or seven figures) investment.
While it might be nice to think about optimizing Spar locations, the factory designers have been around that loop a few times, and what we have is likely pretty close to optimal.

The other physical aspect we as users have some control over is the physical stability of the radiating panel. This is why there are a variety of CLS ‘Stands’ out there. The best are ones that prevent any panel movement, which to me, would necessitate a top mounted brace to either a ceiling or wall behind for the utmost rigidity.

Finally, control of the radiating pattern of the entire speaker is the final area of physical influence, and one that gets largely ignored, yet is the one that is most in our power to do something about, and the one that has the greatest influence on final sound quality. Most specifically, management of the rear wave dispersion and frequency response.

I’ve written much about this and will not repeat it here, other than to reinforce that it is the single, most important area to focus one’s attentions on. Forget amps, forget cables, tweaks and other such stuff until you have taken care of the speaker to room interface.

OK, on to the electrical aspects.

As noted earlier, the voltages provided to maintain the strength of the electrostatic field have a big impact, but mostly on SPL ability. Using some Variac’s I’ve played with changing these, and results are non-conclusive, but a best, slightly lower the SPL by 2db or so.
Mods to the ESL force to raise the potential might have benefits, but you could be exceeding the calculated forces used to decide where spars go and skew the sound by engaging new resonances. But it is an area to play with.

Next is the panel audio step-up transformer. This is an area that I’ve yet to experiment with, but should have audible results. See this thread: Replacing / Upgrading Transformers

Finally, there is the crossover section to mess with, where changes to resistors, caps and inductors all will have an effect on phase, frequency and resistance. Some will improve the speaker to amp synergy, others will affect the speakers frequency response. Much has been written about passive mods, and they are topics I’m no expert on, so I’ll not comment further on passives.

I’ve specialized in active crossovers as I believe they provide much better end results, are easier to experiment with and provide a host of options, like EQ, that are much, much harder to do in passive designs.

Finally, one of the most effective ‘mods’ is to actually do time and frequency domain room correction to the entire speaker/room interface using tools such as the Audyssey room correction. In my custom designed, acoustically treated room, with highly modified active crossover ML’s, adding Audyssey from my Denon AVP-A1HD preamp was the final icing on the cake. Huge improvement.

Coffee is finally wearing off, so signing off for now.
Thanks for this great explanation for those of us new to the CLS models world. Gives me anew appreciation of how many hurdles and variables ML had to be overcome. Excellent
 
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