Do I Really Need a Sub?

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roberto said:
Robert,

We talked about this. I was an user of the Deth I and never had an issue with it. You can see it on system # 460. Now I have a BF-210. It is a totally different sound. To my ears, its bass is deeper and robust, and blends much better with my CLXs. Also I have no issues. Try it, you might like it as I do.
Happy listening!
Click to expand...
Maybe I just got unlucky with my depth i, its caused me a few headaches that id rather not experience. Ive lost some faith in ML. Hoping that the later generation of subs is built more reliable and they learned from their mistakes.
 
Robert D said:
Maybe I just got unlucky with my depth i, its caused me a few headaches that id rather not experience. Ive lost some faith in ML. Hoping that the later generation of subs is built more reliable and they learned from their mistakes.
Click to expand...
All electronic components might have a failure, and this does not mean, it is a bad product. ML does not make any electronic parts. Martin Logan is trusting in the companies who make them. I have been servicing ML since 1987, and believe me when I say that I have seeing the electronic parts used in many high end companies with great reputation, using mediocre quality parts inside. This is not the case with ML. They use high quality parts inside of all of their extensive line. There are rotten lemons, if you have one, change it!
Talk to you dealer, sell your Deph I or have it for repair. If the unit has a problem, you should not use it until it is good.
Happy listening!
 
roberto said:
All electronic components might have a failure, and this does not mean, it is a bad product. ML does not make any electronic parts. Martin Logan is trusting in the companies who make them. I have been servicing ML since 1987, and believe me when I say that I have seeing the electronic parts used in many high end companies with great reputation, using mediocre quality parts inside. This is not the case with ML. They use high quality parts inside of all of their extensive line. There are rotten lemons, if you have one, change it!
Talk to you dealer, sell your Deph I or have it for repair. If the unit has a problem, you should not use it until it is good.
Happy listening!
Click to expand...
Thats good to know. Right now it is working fine, but has times when the woofers crackle. I finally was able to communicate with ML through emails and told them about what was going on and they said it probably wouldnt be fixable for me. I asked about ordering one of their new balanced force subs for a discount and the guy said they could work something out for me. So he was real nice. He just told me to contact them when I am ready to get one and they will give me a deal.

Im going to keep using this for as long as I can. It sounds fine as long as it doesnt make the crackling sound. When I first bought it, it had a bad seal around the back panel and air was whistling through it. It also wasnt able to go into standby mode on its own, it would be on all the time. The local dealer fixed that for me under warranty since it was only 1 week old.

Wondering what I will do with the depth i when I am done with it. I guess just throw it in the trash. Seems a shame. Threw out my last sub that went out, it was a Carver Sunfire.
 
Hear Here said:
Au contraire!

If you spend that much on a speaker, you should hope it was designed to reproduce bass notes without a subwoofer. I've never needed one as I've chosen my speakers carefully with regard to their ability to produce the full range of audible frequencies.

Often subs are "literally" a waste of valuable space in listening rooms. People baulk at buying decent sized main speakers or even choose stand-mount ones to save space but then stuff their rooms with a couple of subs!

If you're prepared to pay a ton of extra cash on subs, consider the alternative - get better speakers in the first place. Exception - great speakers that are unable to offer massive bass. Quad (though later big models are remarkably full of bass), "full range" MLs, Maggies, etc.

"Room Correction" is designed to iron out room nodes but it will equally well adjust for inadequacies in the speaker itself. It worries me that in future speaker designers may leave it to DSP to make up for their laziness to design a first class speaker in the first place!

Peter
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I think room correction only will make the speaker sound the best in the given room.

And a sub is must for films.
 
Hi Robert,

I have used 4 Depth i subs with my SL3, CLS and now CLX speakers. I had to change a fuse in one of them once.

Not sure how you are connecting them but if you haven't, try the speaker connections from your amp or amps.
I found this to be entirely different than line level. The controls provided on the sub became much more effective.

Good luck which ever way you chose.
 
Chops and Roberto have posted some very good info and reading. I want to add that if any of our ML high end guys are thinking of buying a sub, please get a high end sub. This means you can control almost all if not all of the subs features with a remote. Also, buy a sub a bit bigger than what you think you will need. The quality of your bass is MUCH better when using a bigger sub with less excursion than a smaller less powerful sub and really getting into more excursion on the cone. Currently many come with DSP built in and if your in that price range make sure you have it on what your looking at. Generally, and I hate to say generally but don't look at anything smaller than a 12 inch woofer sub. There are very good smaller ones out there but in general, a 12 or even better a 15 inch sub will give you fantastic performance. All in all, get a very good sub and enjoy!
 
spkrdctr said:
Chops and Roberto have posted some very good info and reading. I want to add that if any of our ML high end guys are thinking of buying a sub, please get a high end sub. This means you can control almost all if not all of the subs features with a remote. Also, buy a sub a bit bigger than what you think you will need. The quality of your bass is MUCH better when using a bigger sub with less excursion than a smaller less powerful sub and really getting into more excursion on the cone. Currently many come with DSP built in and if your in that price range make sure you have it on what your looking at. Generally, and I hate to say generally but don't look at anything smaller than a 12 inch woofer sub. There are very good smaller ones out there but in general, a 12 or even better a 15 inch sub will give you fantastic performance. All in all, get a very good sub and enjoy!
Click to expand...

Current cone/suspension/motor technology on subwoofer drivers these days, you don't always have to have large drivers to accomplish the same thing. There are plenty of solid 10" subwoofers out there that can easily compete with larger 12", 13" and 15" subs.

I'm not too sure in the home audio world, but in the car audio world, I know (and have heard) 6" and 8" subwoofers that are quite capable of large amounts of excursion, large amounts of power handling, and can dig deep into the low 20's, upper teens with ultra clean output at high volume levels, thanks to modern technology in their cone/suspension/motor systems. Some of them have clean Xmax up to or close to 2".

For a home audio example, I have a pair of JL Audio e110 subwoofers (the amps for both are arriving from JL tomorrow in fact) with custom built 10" drivers specifically designed for that model, and not only do they have 1200 watts RMS on tap, but the woofers are capable of 2.5" excursion. Short of going with servo controlled subwoofers, these little JL's are some of the most controlled, detailed and cleanest subs I have ever heard for home use. And with two of them along with room gain, they have no problems digging down well below 20 Hz. The driver alone has to weigh around 30 lbs.

If you're like me and your 2-channel system is used for 95% music, 5% movies, then a pair of very capable 10" subs will do pretty much anything you ask of them, including digging well below 20 Hz with usable output.

Now if you're into all out concert level SPL, and/or maximum slam and rumble with movies, then sure, multiple 12's, 13's or 15's are the way to go.
 
I like feeling my base during movies. The depth i I have is able to sometimes cause vibrations on my body that I can feel during some scenes and it adds to the experience for me. It just has 3 little 8 inch woofers, so does pretty good.
 
Right on Robert,

Did you know that the woofers used on the Depth I have double magnets? Also they have a triple servo control. This is the why the Depth I is very accurate with the quality bass sound. The servo control offers to have very low distortion and an incredible bass detail.

Happy listening!
 
Chops said:
It's a MUST for MUSIC as well.
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If a sub is a 'must' for music, do they need to be used as a matched pair (vs single), and second, how much does it matter if they cannot be placed the same relative to the FL and FR speakers? I did re-read the entire thread and apologize if I missed this info along the way...
 
BDH55 said:
If a sub is a 'must' for music, do they need to be used as a matched pair (vs single), and second, how much does it matter if they cannot be placed the same relative to the FL and FR speakers? I did re-read the entire thread and apologize if I missed this info along the way...
Click to expand...

You can get by with one, but two is better for smoothing out room modes, plus sharing the work across two subs instead of one. And if running two, it's probably best to use matching pairs.

As for the second half of your question, you don't want the subs in the same location as the main speakers. 99% of the time, where the speakers are placed to sound best is NOT the same place as to where the subs will sound best.
 
Hola Chicos,
Listen careful the advices that Peter gives for the right setup of a sub.

To get the most of your sub, here is a video that shows how to find the right spot for it. It is much better for music, to perceive the bass than hear the bass.

Is is very important to understand that my licking could be not yours and vice versa. What I do like, not necessary bust be yours.



Happy listening!
 
If you guys knew what I'm using for a sub right now you would all cry and start a Go Fund me page in sympathy. But, believe it or not, it really sounds good in my small room and tweaked with my receiver. This is because I use it at low volumes since the room is small and it pounds well without even breathing hard. It has fantastic musical bass and zero "one note bass thump". It is a Yamaha YST-SW315. It is amazing for the price and Yamaha just keeps making it, I think it's going on well over a decade now in production. I have been waiting for it to die as I have a brand new Martin Logan in the box still sealed up and never opened. That Yamaha just will not die and it sounds so good. Oh well, I'm thinking I might add the ML sub and use two subs at once. But I am in a 1 bedroom apartment so I can't have pants flapping bass like I would like. I have had the ML sub in the box unopened for TWO YEARS now. Shame on me.
 
roberto said:
Hola Chicos,
Listen careful the advices that Peter gives for the right setup of a sub.

To get the most of your sub, here is a video that shows how to find the right spot for it. It is much better for music, to perceive the bass than hear the bass.

Is is very important to understand that my licking could be not yours and vice versa. What I do like, not necessary bust be yours.



Happy listening!
Click to expand...

Nice video. My depth sub blends in well, and sometimes I find myself wondering if its even on because it sounds like the bass is coming from the mains. Right now I'm using some really old Definitive dr7 towers that have 1 single little woofer and you would swear they are putting out tremendous bass.
 
Robert D, you have your sub integrated quite well. It should sound as if your mains are putting out the bass. I have the same setup in that it seems like my MLs are putting out massive bass. Really tricks your ears when set up well.
 
Chops said:
As for the second half of your question, you don't want the subs in the same location as the main speakers. 99% of the time, where the speakers are placed to sound best is NOT the same place as to where the subs will sound best.
Click to expand...
Chops, sorry for my ignorance, but does that also hold true if we completely forget about video for the moment, and are only talking two channel audio? In my setup, one sub would likely have to be located near my LF and close to the corner. On the right side, my second sub could be farther from my RF (while still up front), OR with a scary, long and expensive balanced cable run, 'could' actually be on the right side of the room in the rear corner. To me that just doesn't seem right in a two channel setup...:confused:
 
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