Looks like they are listed as being in Kansas. Thats where the phone number is and there is a building too. Do they just build them in Canada?
Do I Really Need a Sub?
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Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:
Here's the latest (you will likely need to go to the beginning of this thread to understand the following)... I've now heard back from Martin Logan, Parasound, and REL. Some were long email threads, so I will just post the general comments. Comments inside the 'quotes' are being directly quoted (I sure hope I am not breaking some rules doing this, but I've got the original messages and certainly not trying to put anyone in a tough spot)...
MartinLogan: 'You absolutely CAN run our subs off of dual monoblocks'. They went on and said that of course running two channels into a single mono block means it will be down mixed to mono. They also commented that this configuration does 'add a slightly more complex load to your amp, but it shouldn't be too much a detriment in most systems.' They seemed really surprised about my amp heat issue and commented about how 'The JC1 is quite a powerful animal, and we love them and their little stereo brother the JC5.' Regarding my question about the JC 1's being balanced differential amps, they referred me to Parasound (which is completely fair). They went on to say that they have had many systems run off Parasound amps to their sub high level speaker inputs, and have not had any issues with amp overheating. They finished by commenting that 'It is worth mentioning that unlike REL, MartinLogan doesn't necessarily hold the speaker level connection to be the optimal connection for most systems. We typically find that using the XLR or Single-Ended RCA stereo input from your preamp to the subs will almost always give you a lower noise-floor and better dynamic capabilities to your sub! It also maintains the clearest signal path of your amp to speaker, and will give you additional headroom in your amp for your mains!'
Parasound: 'The issue is connecting the outputs of two power amps into a single connector. There are numerous reasons why this cannot work and it does put your JC 1s at risk. Using speaker level connections are only used when there are no line level outputs handy or the distance from the preamp to the sub is enormous. Speaker level inputs on a sub have to be converted to line level anyway, thereby adding more circuity. It's not the preferred option.' While they did say that 'The JC 1s are not fully differential amplifiers'... they didn't really describe their topology. They wrapped up with... 'I'd be remiss if I didn't mention a bit about our history with ML. It goes back many years, with my purchase of a pair of Quests with special order rosewood rails in the early '80s. They purchased four JC 1s when they released their Monolith in 2003. When their engineer Joe Vojtko developed the Neolith he specified an A 21. He found the A 21 perfect for the job, despite its modest price'. My comments... I am not sure that they understood what I actually did... yes, I did connect both amps to a single physical connector, but it was a single connector with both left channel and right channel inputs.
REL: Their response was 'It is worth noting that, for systems which use monoblock power amplifiers it is necessary to use a stereo pair of subwoofers in order to take advantage of the High Level connection method. Connecting a single subwoofer High Level to two monoblock amplifiers often results in a ground loop hum which can be very difficult, and in most cases impossible, to eliminate'. Further into our dialog I got 'For optimal performance, we recommend connecting the 212/SX subwoofers to your system using both the High Level and .1/LFE inputs. Both inputs can be used simultaneously, which allows the subwoofers to provide low-frequency extension for your front left and right channel speakers while also delivering the LFE sub-bass effect channel found in home theater material.' Regarding my Para JC 1's they said 'The Parasound JC1 monoblocks are Class A/B common-ground designs, and as a result there should be no performance issues with the subwoofers or the amplifiers by using the High Level connection method. These are very popular amplifiers, and many REL customers have used the High Level connection with these amplifiers without issue.'
I also braved the C19 virus today and went down to one of our local dealers to try to listen to some REL subs, and potentially, some Mac amps. While I got to listen to a nice pair of MC611's, I was totally surprised that while they had a pair of stereo subs in EVERY room (apparently, there are no more two channel systems... they are all two channel plus two subs), none were REL... they were all JL Audio! I did hear some unbelievable Diana Krall through a pair of B&W's driven by MC611's with and without a pair of JL Fathom f212v2 subs but at $8K each... I don't think so! I asked the dealer about their sub connection method and they said JL recommends the low level RCA/XLR connections only (actually, I am not sure they even offer a high level connection).
So, what I am hearing from this is that neither ML, Parasound, or JL recommends using high level connections to subs, while REL so believes in using high level connections, they even include the high level cable. I don't know if REL is really on to something here, or not...
MartinLogan: 'You absolutely CAN run our subs off of dual monoblocks'. They went on and said that of course running two channels into a single mono block means it will be down mixed to mono. They also commented that this configuration does 'add a slightly more complex load to your amp, but it shouldn't be too much a detriment in most systems.' They seemed really surprised about my amp heat issue and commented about how 'The JC1 is quite a powerful animal, and we love them and their little stereo brother the JC5.' Regarding my question about the JC 1's being balanced differential amps, they referred me to Parasound (which is completely fair). They went on to say that they have had many systems run off Parasound amps to their sub high level speaker inputs, and have not had any issues with amp overheating. They finished by commenting that 'It is worth mentioning that unlike REL, MartinLogan doesn't necessarily hold the speaker level connection to be the optimal connection for most systems. We typically find that using the XLR or Single-Ended RCA stereo input from your preamp to the subs will almost always give you a lower noise-floor and better dynamic capabilities to your sub! It also maintains the clearest signal path of your amp to speaker, and will give you additional headroom in your amp for your mains!'
Parasound: 'The issue is connecting the outputs of two power amps into a single connector. There are numerous reasons why this cannot work and it does put your JC 1s at risk. Using speaker level connections are only used when there are no line level outputs handy or the distance from the preamp to the sub is enormous. Speaker level inputs on a sub have to be converted to line level anyway, thereby adding more circuity. It's not the preferred option.' While they did say that 'The JC 1s are not fully differential amplifiers'... they didn't really describe their topology. They wrapped up with... 'I'd be remiss if I didn't mention a bit about our history with ML. It goes back many years, with my purchase of a pair of Quests with special order rosewood rails in the early '80s. They purchased four JC 1s when they released their Monolith in 2003. When their engineer Joe Vojtko developed the Neolith he specified an A 21. He found the A 21 perfect for the job, despite its modest price'. My comments... I am not sure that they understood what I actually did... yes, I did connect both amps to a single physical connector, but it was a single connector with both left channel and right channel inputs.
REL: Their response was 'It is worth noting that, for systems which use monoblock power amplifiers it is necessary to use a stereo pair of subwoofers in order to take advantage of the High Level connection method. Connecting a single subwoofer High Level to two monoblock amplifiers often results in a ground loop hum which can be very difficult, and in most cases impossible, to eliminate'. Further into our dialog I got 'For optimal performance, we recommend connecting the 212/SX subwoofers to your system using both the High Level and .1/LFE inputs. Both inputs can be used simultaneously, which allows the subwoofers to provide low-frequency extension for your front left and right channel speakers while also delivering the LFE sub-bass effect channel found in home theater material.' Regarding my Para JC 1's they said 'The Parasound JC1 monoblocks are Class A/B common-ground designs, and as a result there should be no performance issues with the subwoofers or the amplifiers by using the High Level connection method. These are very popular amplifiers, and many REL customers have used the High Level connection with these amplifiers without issue.'
I also braved the C19 virus today and went down to one of our local dealers to try to listen to some REL subs, and potentially, some Mac amps. While I got to listen to a nice pair of MC611's, I was totally surprised that while they had a pair of stereo subs in EVERY room (apparently, there are no more two channel systems... they are all two channel plus two subs), none were REL... they were all JL Audio! I did hear some unbelievable Diana Krall through a pair of B&W's driven by MC611's with and without a pair of JL Fathom f212v2 subs but at $8K each... I don't think so! I asked the dealer about their sub connection method and they said JL recommends the low level RCA/XLR connections only (actually, I am not sure they even offer a high level connection).
So, what I am hearing from this is that neither ML, Parasound, or JL recommends using high level connections to subs, while REL so believes in using high level connections, they even include the high level cable. I don't know if REL is really on to something here, or not...
So it's one of those "clear as mud" situations regarding connecting multiple amps to one subwoofer.
There are other ways to skin cats, and what I'm getting from the really nice and pretty detailed responses you received is that each company has experience with their flavor of connection type that they can fully support. You got some useful advice from every company.
Let me toss into the ring another wrinkle. I've been using a miniDSP and have 3 subs connected to the Center Sub output from my processor. Even though I'm a huge fan of speaker level connected subs for music (full disclosure: I'm not using this method currently), the miniDSP offers some really nifty benefits which allow for tailoring each sub in ways that allow a novice like me to have success. It also has multiple profiles which can be selected at will for different purposes. One profile I'm planning to work on is for two channel usage where the subs will be for only sub-bass, like under 20 or 30Hz for just a little bit of a nudge.
At AXPONA last year I witnessed the Wilson Audio Subsonic subwoofers which were limited to 20Hz and under, coupled with the Alexx speakers. The Subsonic uses an external controller that allows for tailoring the sub-bass in a "ahem" comparable way to the miniDSP but for about 100 times the price. This is when I began thinking that the "normal" way of connection should receive more consideration in my system.
The controls on a lot of subwoofers are very limited. Using an outboard controller greatly increases control in ways that processors can't even provide. I'm currently using the LFE input on all three subs which means that the subs are dumb and rely on outboard devices to provide control of all the frequencies and crossover settings and slopes.
One last thing, I'm using wireless connection between the subs and the miniDSP. It's been working very well. So each subwoofer and its receiver are plugged into a common power source, but no other wires needed.
Woof! That Soundoctor site is quite interesting -- and also makes my head hurt. Appears to be lots of info I need to absorb, so I will be returning and re-reading much what is offered.
Anyone ever tried or use the JL CR-1?
ttocs, I'm curious about this 'miniDSP' approach. I'm not a very technical guy, so where would I get more info on this? As for you using a wireless connection to your subs, I am also interested in that. My 'future' stereo pair of subs (and potentially, center sub), are not an issue, but adding rear channel subs will be a challenge. While certainly not impossible using good old copper, it would definitely be easier using wireless.
Right now I am definitely leaning toward REL. Watching their videos about the benefits of using high level connections does have me really believing. That said, their online support has been better than probably anyone I have ever dealt with. Sure, maybe they know they can sell some subs by responding to me but they have answered every question, in a timely fashion, and on top of that have answered questions that I had not even thought to ask...
I'm a fan of Rel. I'm also intrigued with Rythmik Audio Subwoofers who make what looks like very reasonably priced subs and I've read owner reviews that rave about how they stand behind their products.
miniDSP is a product range aimed more at tinkerers. It's a bit clumsy at times with their outdated method of updating the settings on the miniDSP box. That said, it's a very versatile piece of kit. It took me a while to get comfortable with it, and I'm only scratching the surface with its capabilities.
The breakthrough for me was when I found out that connecting my computer (MacBook Pro) to my processor via HDMI made things A LOT simpler to setup. There's not a lot of hand-holding going on, but there are a lot of videos to watch showing mostly the same stuff over and over. The problem with most of the videos is that they "gloss over" some very pertinent setup info that left me in the dark, so I banged my head against the rocks until I discovered what was missing. miniDSP.com has a lot of good info - even though some pertinent info is not fully explained. You toob has gobs of videos, but again, it requires a lot of time to wade through the repeats to get the info that might be missing for the setup and the exact "how to".
The miniDSP I have has 2 inputs and 4 outputs. They can be matrixed to be any combination, so each output can be toggled On/Off for either or both of the inputs. There's lots of control possibilities including Level, Crossover, PEQ, Delay, etc. So if you want to use it for stereo input/output, or how I use it as 1-input/3-output. Or you can get other versions with more inputs and outputs. They even have a Dirac model.
Since you have an Anthem processor, you might want to find out if their room correction can handle multiple subwoofers. If it can, then I'd stick with Anthem. If not, then it'll come down to how much you are willing to learn a new black box and other software - REW, which is what I use to run measurements for setting up the miniDSP and the subs.
I'm very willing to help as best I can. No problem.
I bought VSUB-1 transmitters/receivers for 3 subwoofers from Emotiva. It's about $130 per pair and is only for RCA connection. I made some really short RCA cables for these to keep things neat. The units are supposed to be capable of wireless connection up to 50' line-of-sight, but that's optimistic. The longest distance for mine is about 22' with furniture in the way and it works fine. As best as I can measure, the extra delay using these is about 1ms or so, not much. Setup is really simple. Plug in, press a button on the transmitter and receiver, they pair, end of story. You can pair multiple receivers to one transmitter, or one to one. So I have a cable connecting the Center Sub output of the processor to the miniDSP, then 3 outputs of the miniDSP to the 3 transmitters, so each sub is on its own channel on the miniDSP.
Chops
Well-known member
Well, no matter what kind of connections different manufacturers recommend or prefer, you heard for yourself in YOUR system just how much better subs can sound when fed a high level signal from the main amp(s).
This has been my preferred method for several years now, and highly doubt I'll ever go back to low level or DSP. And this is coming from someone who has a mint, perfectly good, barely used dbx DriveRack Venu360 that I bought new, used for a while in one version of my system, and it now sits in the closet (along with the included dbx calibrated mic). And that unit isn't cheap either, at almost $900, not including the RTA-M mic which was another $100 alone.
spkrdctr
Well-known member
By using high-level signals it's just dropped down to the RCA level inside the sub. I would get whatever sub you like and not get wrapped up about high-level signal connections. Remember most if not all setups are room dependant. Your room and sub placement will be far more important than a supposed hook up tweak that 95% of the industry does not recommend. Just think about the bigger picture. Sometimes we get down into the weeds and find a rabbit trail........
Heyfey
Well-known member
I bought a CR-1 a few months ago and am still "playing" with it, i.e. I've taken no measurements, only set by ear. I also have several options for subwoofer amps that I haven't decided upon yet. I'm using it to send the high-pass signal into ML Odysseys and that does allow me to avoid the nasty peak they have at 50 Hz. There's no detectable decrease in the overall sound quality I'm hearing from the Odysseys, which was my main concern about getting the CR-1. I emailed JL Audio several times before I purchased the CR-1 with somewhat technical questions and they were very responsive. I should have time in December and January to finalize the setup and might have more to add then.
Thanks! I will certainly stay tuned. It sounds like a very interesting, user-friendly piece.
BTW, as I understand your post you are using the CR-1 with your ML Odysseys, and not with external subs, yes?
Heyfey
Well-known member
CR-1 high-pass goes to the power amps driving the Odysseys, low-pass goes to the power amps driving the subs.
Chops
Well-known member
Don't discount it completely just because "95% of the industry" doesn't recommend it, if that's even an accurate percentage, which I highly doubt. There's more to it than that apparently. Don't knock it until you try it. Not only did my old Polk subs sound much better with a high level signal being fed to them, so do my JL subs.
amey01
Well-known member
And worth noting that REL have specifically recommended high level connection for years.
Chops
Well-known member
Exactly. There's a reason why REL is known for being about the best "audiophile" and/or "musical" subwoofer company out there.
ttocs,
Wow! Thx for all the detailed info, and the offer to help. I did go up to the miniDSP site and hunt around (but did not check out any of the YouTube stuff). Unfortunately, it didn't take long for me to realize that this just isn't for me. I think it was when I read 'one can configure the on board Audio processing filters real time from a PC or Mac environment' I knew that was more than I wanted to sign up for! I've got to admit, I'm not quite sure how I would even work this into my system. That said, I thought some of the room correction stuff looked interesting, so I'm likely to head back and give their site a more thorough read.
Regarding the AVM 60's room correction software being able to handle multiple subs, I haven't looked into that yet. While I know they have two sub outputs, I don't know if that is two outputs, or... two independently controlled outputs. My current plan remains to bring two subs in and integrate them as a stereo pair, most likely connected off my mono blocks using a high level connection. So other than my AVM 60 feeding them thru the LFE output, I 'think' it is largely out of the picture in my planned config. Of course I haven't got things in and started playing around yet either, so once again I may find out that I just didn't know, what I didn't know!
Yeah, I get 'ya with the computer interface stuff. With my 3 subwoofer compliment, after having located the ultimate locations in my room for subwoofers to reside, I'm forced to use the miniDSP or something else like it to aid in grouping the subs to work as one. The goal with this experiment was to find the most extended bass with the flattest response possible using only delay and levels - before applying any room correction - from the subs I have, which succeeded.
When I had ML Vista speakers and was able to use my Rel to extend the bass using the Speaker Level Neutrik Connection, it worked wonderfully! The small downward firing single driver Rel was a great match with the Vista. What didn't work was when I bought the larger Sumiko subs hoping to achieve an even better result. As I've mentioned in the past, it was the hum which precluded me from using them concurrently as speaker level and LFE/bass-management subs. So I used bass management in the processor until I got my Expressions, at which point I had the same result with hum and abandoned the speaker level method with these subs and only use them for LFE (currently, things change). By spring of 2019 Sumiko Subwoofers By Sonus Faber had disappeared and my subs were no longer supported!! I had wondered what was going on when emails went unanswered in late 2018 when I was trying to resolve the hum issue and why it was that one sub never shuts off - it is always "thinking" that a signal is present so when the time-out occurs for it to sleep, it shuts off for one second, then turns on again. Every eleven minutes. So now the triple-sub-group handles LFE Only, and bass management sends all the bass for the satellites set as Small to the Expressions. Separating the LFE was a huge improvement for watching movies.
If wishing to use the speaker level method: Get a couple Rel subwoofers. Better yet, get six! Two stacks of three.
I still have the desire to add speaker level sub bass, and I know I'll need new subs to accomplish this. It's really the only thing on my wishlist, well, that and trying to get all the wires to look nice and neat.
Sorry to hear you got burned by Sumiko. I guess companies come, and companies go, but I also feel like I got abandoned by OPPO Digital when they decided to bail out. The good news with them is at least they are keeping their support up for a couple of years (although, I haven't actually tried to reach them since all my stuff is still working just fine).
Thanks for the vote of confidence on REL. I am 'strongly' (actually, very strongly) leaning toward going with them. As far as getting a 'six pack'... hmmm, let's see... may as well go with their top of the line No, 25... and that would work out to... $45,000 and 1000 pounds of subs coming into the house!!!
While I love the look of their 'stacks' and I buy into their logic behind them, I just don't have the budget, or the room. Besides, I've been spending a bunch on upgrading various things, and the little women does need a new car. Soooooo..... Subs? Car? Subs? Car?... I don't think that I can even convince myself on this one... I hear you about the nice and neat wires, and I've been trying my best to clean up a lot of my wiring as well (in fact, for the first time EVER, I have actually labeled both ends of every interconnect in my system). As far as hiding wires I still think that JLasher22443 is my idol. Somehow his room has 'no cables'... and looks like an ad from Stereophile or other high end magazine...
I don't have that kind of budget either! Especially since my salary got cut by more than half a few months ago (hopefully the new project will start in a few months, it's been on hold).Thanks for the vote of confidence on REL. I am 'strongly' (actually, very strongly) leaning toward going with them. As far as getting a 'six pack'... hmmm, let's see... may as well go with their top of the line No, 25... and that would work out to... $45,000 and 1000 pounds of subs coming into the house!!!
I emailed Rythmik Audio and provided a detailed explanation of what I'd like to accomplish. Should be interesting to hear what they recommend.
I am inquiring about using a pair of triple-stacked subs just for speaker level connection with the Expressions, no LFE. They would be setup like Rel recommends, right next to and outside of the Left/Right speakers. If they recommend one of the models I "hope" they recommend, then I would order a couple to start with and see how well they work before getting more.
Keep us in the loop! I'm interested in rythmik too. I think when my depth I finally dies, I will buy a pair of their F18.
I got a reply from Rythmik Audio today. With the knowledge that I want to end up with sub stacks next to each front speaker and want two to begin with, and that I'd like to use 12" drivers, the recommendation is to go with a dual driver unit - L22.
The L22 model doesn't have a speaker level input, but this is easily remedied by getting a converter. RDL makes a converter: Model STP-1. The STP-1 is a very versatile item able to be configured for many situations. I've got a couple of RDL's Balanced-Unbalanced converters and they are high quality.
So, I'm in favor of ordering one L22 tomorrow but I'll sleep on it tonight to let the info digest a bit. They can't ship till end of next week anyway, to there's no rush.
If the results are positive, then the idea would be to order 3 more - eventually. I gotta be careful for a while, so the hope would be to get one more by year's end, then another pair later - assuming work goes back to full time again. Then I would have two stacks with 4 drivers.
This might lead to an additional wrinkle in the "where's the bass coming from?" story.
1. The two Channel setup with the Expressions set as Large and the L22's setup for the very low bass via speaker level connection is the primary goal.
2. There could also be a HT setup with the Expressions set as Small, use my current subs for Bass Management for all Small speakers, then use the four L22's for LFE Only because they have much better capability below 20Hz.
The L22 model doesn't have a speaker level input, but this is easily remedied by getting a converter. RDL makes a converter: Model STP-1. The STP-1 is a very versatile item able to be configured for many situations. I've got a couple of RDL's Balanced-Unbalanced converters and they are high quality.
So, I'm in favor of ordering one L22 tomorrow but I'll sleep on it tonight to let the info digest a bit. They can't ship till end of next week anyway, to there's no rush.
If the results are positive, then the idea would be to order 3 more - eventually. I gotta be careful for a while, so the hope would be to get one more by year's end, then another pair later - assuming work goes back to full time again. Then I would have two stacks with 4 drivers.
This might lead to an additional wrinkle in the "where's the bass coming from?" story.
1. The two Channel setup with the Expressions set as Large and the L22's setup for the very low bass via speaker level connection is the primary goal.
2. There could also be a HT setup with the Expressions set as Small, use my current subs for Bass Management for all Small speakers, then use the four L22's for LFE Only because they have much better capability below 20Hz.
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