Conclusions and Confusions: Not just another "Which Amplifier" thread...

[adanny]

Hi Folks

Over the last month, I have built up a system of 5 MLs (2 Summits; Stage; 2Script i's; Searching for another 2 Script'i). I have also upgraded the processor. Am adding a new Plasma and projector. System is coming together brilliantly :music: I have truly discovered music all over again

The question I have: How critical is an amp upgrade? I am running these on my 7 year old B&K 7270 (200w at 8 ohm x 7 channels). They sound fine but I am convinced I can do better. I have auditoned a Krell Showcase, Cary solid state, Classe 5200, Ayre, McIntosh and Theta Dreadnaught II. All with MLs (except Ayre which was with Maggies), but all in different rooms, different set ups so, frankly, basically impossible to compare. Tragically, still havent heard the Pass-Labs. As with many audiophiles-without-infinite time, I would love to hear every possible amp in my room but just can't...

Based on hearing, reading, talking to dealers and friends, tearing my hair out reading forums, I have come up with 2 conclusions and 3 confusions when comparing solid state amps of roughly the same high quality build, reputation (under $10,000):

Conclusion 1 (The Thoroughbred conclusion): One high quality solid state amp versus another is like comparing one DerbyThoroughbred versus another. Both are awesome; Both will sound slightly different (NOT dramatically different) when tested on the SAME system; massive perceived differences and performance across systems more likely due to different conditions or due to unusually sensitive ears. I.e One great solid state amp versus another will not sound jaw-droppingly different to most poeple.

Conclusion 2 (7 channel overkill): Best place to save a few bucks is to spend more and upgrade front 2 or front 3 versus buying a 7 channel amp. Great 3 channel amp gets you 100% of the 2-channel sound/value and 90% of the 7-channel sound/value. Stated differently, if you have X to spend on an amp, spend 80% of x on front 3 channels and 20% of X on rear 4 channels. This is obviously true for folks who are largely audiophiles but also true for folks who love movies. I.e. All 7 monoblocks would be great but...

Where I have reached no conlusions, and many "confusions"...

Confusion 1 (More power beyond a point?): Does a more powerful amp (400watts versus 200watts) sound "smoother", better than a slightly lower powered (i.e. 200 w) but equally high quality/build amp? Does it manage more difficult pieces audibly better? Does it sound audibly louder? if you had "X dollars, would you buy a more powerful amp for the front 3 or use the extra dollars to upgrade the rear 4?

Confusion 2 (which 3-channel amp in the $5-10k?): If I lean towards liking slightly brighter sound, with a focus on highs and mids over thumps, how do I decide between PassLab, Theta Dreadnaught II, Classe or Parasound? For various reasons I have passed on Krell, Cary and Ayre

Confusion 3 (new or used): This is obviously a religion with no clear answer. But given that well treated amps last forever, should I "audiogon" and get better gear or buy new and take a chance?

Let the facts and opinions start flowing begin...

 

[DrJRapp]

Do not hesitate go to Audiogon and don't waste $$ elsewhere. Do a search for ARAGON. ARAGON, although discontinued is still supported by Klipsch and will be for years to come. They are often referrred to as "poor man's Krell" because their original amp electrical designs were created by Dan D'Agostino (of Krell) and all the later designs evolved from there. But don't let the term "Porr Man's" throw you, the internal build in on par with any of the best of today.

Once you search Audiogon for ARAGON you will find a pair of NOS Palladium 1K listed for $3200. You should be able to buy them for $2500-2700. You will also find an Aragon 3005 which is 300 wpc 5 channel amp listed for $1650, $1200-1400 is realistic. Use the Palladiums for your mains and the 3005 for everything else. I ran this setup with Summits, Theater i center and "other" surrounds. The Processor was an Anthem Statement D2, considered by many at that time to be the best sounding pre-pro out there for 2 ch analog. I now run my Palladiums with my Summits in a 2 channel only rig with a Balanced Audio Technologies preamp, Meridian 808 CDP and about $7K worth of analog front end. Even with all the somewhat lofty gear I have no desire to change out the Pals for anything else. You can view my past and current setup under system 143.

With some sharp negotiation you can wind up with your amps for much less than $5K at your door. Then, get yourself a high quality set of silver ICs between your processor and amps. Since you claim to like "bright" those ICs will retain the extended highs.

YOU MAY NEVER NEED OR WANT ANYTHING ELSE....
But if you do decide you want to change you will sell them off to someone in Parsippany and probably get every penny back....lol

The 400 wpc Palladiums run class A all the way up to 140 wpc, which means you will probably only get to crossover to class B 1to2% of the time. You can definitly hear the efortless sound of high powered amps...they just sound...well ....big. Smaller amps in the 200 wpc range will sound a bit compressed at high SPL. I respectfully dissagree with your conclusion #1...but that subject can consume an entire thread!

OBTW...I'm from your area, and I built what used to be the Holiday Inn Plaza Hotel and Conference center downtown ( don't know what it is now)

 

[Gordon Gray]

Do you use the system primarily for video?

How much time, percentage wise, do you listen to two (2) channel audio or multi-channel audio SACD's?

GG

 

[twich54]

The question I have: How critical is an amp upgrade?

They sound fine but I am convinced I can do better.

Well....now that you're convinced there should be NO confussion !

It simply comes down to your EARS and your wallet !

I would suggest you puruse members systems that are multi-channel and go from there.

 

[DTB300]

You can find an Odeon ocassionaly on the 'Gon for a great price. A GREAT 6 Channel amp and use a powered sub for the 7th channel.

You will/may not need the same power for the mains as you do for the center/surround, so you could buy multiple amps from the same company with different power ratings. So you could by a nice Pass, Plinius, Aragon, etc. for mains, then buy a smaller ones for center/surrounds. This way you get similar/same signature sound.

 

[MiTT]

You will/may not need the same power for the mains as you do for the center/surround, so you could buy multiple amps from the same company with different power ratings. So you could by a nice Pass, Plinius, Aragon, etc. for mains, then buy a smaller ones for center/surrounds. This way you get similar/same signature sound.

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding!!!

A very good suggestion from Dan on this point. It also accomodates easy upgrades downstream as your tastes and budget allow.

Of course I'll mention BAT in the whole mix...

 

[David Matz]

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding!!!


Of course I'll mention BAT in the whole mix...

Ditto on the BAT.

Also, for 2 channel music, there is no such thing as too much power.

Good Luck!

 

[Spike]

Polarizing topic

This is one of the polarizing topic where there had been endless debates in this forum and I'm...guilty of chiming in and fuel the fire on several. From the surface of your post, I guess that you're thinking solid-state amplifier for a home-theater/multi-channel experience. If that's the case, let me point you to the following threads discussing amplifiers and Summits:

1. Upgrading to Summits
2. Amp Choices for Summits

There are more threads on matching tubes & low-powered amplifiers to Summits but I don't think you wanna go there just yet. Just click on the URL to get to the threads and ... Happy Reading!

Spike

 

[Burke]

Confusion 1 (More power beyond a point?): Does a more powerful amp (400watts versus 200watts) sound "smoother", better than a slightly lower powered (i.e. 200 w) but equally high quality/build amp? Does it manage more difficult pieces audibly better? Does it sound audibly louder? if you had "X dollars, would you buy a more powerful amp for the front 3 or use the extra dollars to upgrade the rear 4?

From my experience once you can supply the current at low impedances, more power does not buy better sound. I have powered my Summits with both a receiver (ok sound), a Sunfire Symphonic Reference 200 wpc (dramatic differnece from receiver), Sanders ESL 2ch amplifier 360wpc or 2,000 volt amps into and ESL (another nice step up), and now the Sanders ESL monoblocks 800wpc (you can hear the difference if you listen really close) not worth the extra money based on sound alone.

Confusion 2 (which 3-channel amp in the $5-10k?): If I lean towards liking slightly brighter sound, with a focus on highs and mids over thumps, how do I decide between PassLab, Theta Dreadnaught II, Classe or Parasound? For various reasons I have passed on Krell, Cary and Ayre

Again I will throw in the Sanders Sound Systems amps into the mix, Also in two head to head comparisions between my Sanders and the CJ 350 it was a near tie. Me and Wayne like the Sanders, David and Cherian liked the CJ 350.

Only your ears can decide but conclusion 1 is right on the money.

 

[Rich]

I run the Sanders Monoblocs on my Summits, with a Sunfire five-channel amp powering the center and surrounds. Works beautifully. If you care about high-end stereo sound, as well as home theater / multichannel sound, you need to have a really high quality amp on the main left and right channels. A quality multi-channel amp will work fine for the center and surrounds.

I am not sure how much bang for the buck you will get with an amp upgrade to a high quality two-channel amp if you are still using a surround sound processor as your preamp for music listening. Each upgrade you make will only reveal the limitations further up the chain. That is why I have a high quality stereo preamp and CD/SACD player for my two channel listening, vs. the surround sound processor and universal player for my video/multichannel listening. Welcome to the madhouse.

 

[twich54]

I am not sure how much bang for the buck you will get with an amp upgrade to a high quality two-channel amp if you are still using a surround sound processor as your preamp for music listening. Each upgrade you make will only reveal the limitations further up the chain. That is why I have a high quality stereo preamp and CD/SACD player for my two channel listening, vs. the surround sound processor and universal player for my video/multichannel listening. Welcome to the madhouse.

I'm in total agreement with Rich, with respect to his above paragraph, as I follow the same logic with my set-up.

 

[adanny]

Do not hesitate go to Audiogon and don't waste $$ elsewhere. Do a search for ARAGON. ARAGON, although discontinued is still supported by Klipsch and will be for years to come.

.......(deleted)

YOU MAY NEVER NEED OR WANT ANYTHING ELSE....
But if you do decide you want to change you will sell them off to someone in Parsippany and probably get every penny back....lol

The 400 wpc Palladiums run class A all the way up to 140 wpc, which means you will probably only get to crossover to class B 1to2% of the time. You can definitly hear the efortless sound of high powered amps...they just sound...well ....big. Smaller amps in the 200 wpc range will sound a bit compressed at high SPL. I respectfully dissagree with your conclusion #1...but that subject can consume an entire thread!

OBTW...I'm from your area, and I built what used to be the Holiday Inn Plaza Hotel and Conference center downtown ( don't know what it is now)

That would be the Hyatt downtown - very interesting! So you were involved with the Morristown downtown revival!

appreciate your "respectful disagreement" and Aragon tip...

 

[adanny]

This is one of the polarizing topic where there had been endless debates in this forum and I'm...guilty of chiming in and fuel the fire on several. From the surface of your post, I guess that you're thinking solid-state amplifier for a home-theater/multi-channel experience. If that's the case, let me point you to the following threads discussing amplifiers and Summits:

1. Upgrading to Summits
2. Amp Choices for Summits

Spike

Thanks Spike. I had flipped through those threads earlier but was very entertaining to see the views in more detail - also many of the personalities are almost as warm/bright as the amps they describe

Most of the points in the threads above were largely my "conclusions" and confusions. Some new learnings are to give the aragon a try. Am also leaning towards the more power school.

 

[adanny]

Do you use the system primarily for video?

How much time, percentage wise, do you listen to two (2) channel audio or multi-channel audio SACD's?

GG

Music 80%, HT 20%

In music, 2 channel 50%. Processed mode on 2 channel sound (especially Neo:6) about 25%; SACD about 25%. I love SACD but only own 10-12 SACDs.

Never liked the processed multi channel sound but am warming up to it on my Parasound Halo C2

 

[Spike]

Some new learnings are to give the aragon a try. Am also leaning towards the more power school.

If you subscribe to the "more power school", the you really need to put Pass Labs, Plinius and BAT on your list.

Spike

 

[DTB300]

Music 80%, HT 20%

As suggested by others.... For 2 Ch a new Pre Amp with HT pass-through will greatly improve your 2 channel listening and sound over new Power Amps. The Parasound is nice, but nowhere as nice as a dedicated 2 CH Pre.

Processed mode on 2 channel sound (especially Neo:6)........Never liked the processed multi channel sound but am warming up to it on my Parasound Halo C2

I am confused You process 2 channel with Neo:6, but do not like MCH processed sound? Or are you playing 2 ch tracks and processing for 2 ch output and then MCH output?

For MCH SACD you want to run straight pass-through on the processor - analog out from your player.

 

[DrJRapp]

Never liked the processed multi channel sound but am warming up to it on my Parasound Halo C2

The C2 is an excellent sounding processor and will be a good match for the Aragon Palladiums which are similar in performance to the JC 1s at a lot less $$. You could take the $$ saved and buy the Halo preamp (I think it's called P3) which is very highly regarded and could make a great addition used in bypass mode. What people are saying is correct, the Summits really are deserving of top notch electronics and sound best with the least amount of manipulation of signal.

 

[taylode]

Another fine amp to consider is the McIntosh MC303. Here is a brief write up from Mc:

At 300 watts per channel the new McIntosh MC303 Three Channel Power Amplifier with Autoformers delivers its maximum rated output power into 2, 4, or 8 ohm loads for the lowest noise and distortion performance possible. Premium cosmetics featuring a ½” thick glass faceplate, custom machined and anodized aluminum handles, and a mirror polished stainless steel chassis are standard equipment on the MC303. Power Guard, a McIntosh circuit innovation, maximizes sound quality at high power levels while our Sentry Monitor feature provides continuous short circuit protection of the amplifier and connected loudspeakers. A triple bank of Peak Reading Watt Meters provides instant recognition of power output and may be switched off for theater use.

I believe this is the first McIntosh multi-channel amp that includes autoformers, which has a lot to do with their sound. You owe it to yourself to check it out. If you can't find an MC303 at least give a listen to the MC252. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

 

[adanny]

If you subscribe to the "more power school", the you really need to put Pass Labs, Plinius and BAT on your list.

Spike

Agree - have not heard (or even seen) Pass, Plin or BAT in the stores where I have heard the MLs (at least locally here in NJ). I visited pretty much all the local stores that carry MLs (except Woodbridge stereo) but they dont appear to carry the above. Would love to be able to listen but, alas, with other life needs, hard to drive miles and miles to listen every amp, every weekend

 

[adanny]

As suggested by others.... For 2 Ch a new Pre Amp with HT pass-through will greatly improve your 2 channel listening and sound over new Power Amps. The Parasound is nice, but nowhere as nice as a dedicated 2 CH Pre.


I am confused You process 2 channel with Neo:6, but do not like MCH processed sound? Or are you playing 2 ch tracks and processing for 2 ch output and then MCH output?

For MCH SACD you want to run straight pass-through on the processor - analog out from your player.

agree but have deprioritized the 2-ch pre/pro for now. I bought the Parasound C2 after researching and listening to it, Classe, Cary, Rotel and B&K. Have no doubt that I should upgrade to a 2 ch pre at some point.

to resolve your confusion - I used to HATE 2 ch processed sound (NOT SACD) till I listened to it on the Halo C2. processing with neo:6 and listening to more processed sound is a recent addition to my listening habits. Still hate all the other processed modes.

I am running the MCH SACD analog out from player and direct pass through and love it