Call me crazy but they (magic dots) work!

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Jeff,

As I qualified in one of my later posts than the one you quoted, I apologized in advance if you had experimented with this product.

So there it is.

Regarding your suggestion that other products will substantially outperform the dots. Could be but I have no desire to try. As previously stated, am quite content with the sound of my room and the system.

In fact and for the first time in many years, I really don't want to change anything. For me, I believe I really have it "dialed in".

Could be my ears, my age, and who knows what else.

Thanks for the input and clarification.

GG

 

[amey01]

What I was trying to point out was that one could investigate this effect in their own system without spending 650 on a set of maringo dots.

....and that's exactly what I'm going to do. At $USD650 (and nigh on $AUD1,000 no doubt) that's one darn expensive experiment! Thanks Jeff.

Gordon - two questions:

1: Out of what are the dots actually made? They look like sticky clear plastic, is that right? Or something else?

2: What made you try this expensive experiment (just out of interest)?

 

[TomDac]

OH BOY, here it comes. I hope it doesn't get me BANNED...

Tom, use the search feature, it's your friend!
:ROFL::devil:

ouch. That hurts, bud...

 

[jtwrace]

Hey Gordon,

can you explain what these do? I'm a little confused.

Gordon-

Think it might be time to fire up the camera for the Pres...

 

[Bernard]

I was also trying to point out that in a fairly large quantity, a few thousand dollars worth of little tuning dots will not make up for room anomalies in the same way that basic acoustic treatments will.

Definitely a key consideration when trying to decide how to spend your shekels on room treatment.

I wonder if the dots are as effective if you have something like Tube Traps immediately behind your speakers, i.e. you subdue the back wave before it gets to the glass.

 

[tonepub]

Perhaps Ethan will chime in on this, but the bass traps are going to do just that, trap bass. Glass windows have a different reflective and resonant characteristic and will need something else entirely...

 

[C.A.P]

In fact and for the first time in many years, I really don't want to change anything.

GG

That is as PRICELESS as it gets ! You cant put a dollar value on that ! :bowdown:

 

[Gordon Gray]

....and that's exactly what I'm going to do. At $USD650 (and nigh on $AUD1,000 no doubt) that's one darn expensive experiment! Thanks Jeff.

Gordon - two questions:

1: Out of what are the dots actually made? They look like sticky clear plastic, is that right? Or something else?

2: What made you try this expensive experiment (just out of interest)?

Hi Amey,

1) Read the above post by Jeff. Apparently he had someone, who is familiar with material analysis, investigate this issue.

Thanks Jeff for providing this info.

2) Given the overall investment I have in my system, this is, for better or worse, a "relatively" insignificant amount. In addition, my listening space is my living room, which is small to begin with and happens to have large glass windows with a great view of the mountains. I simply did not want to aesthetically compromise the room, with acoustic treatments, to address the negative sonic impacts of a hard, reflective surface.

GG

 

[amey01]

Gordon-

Think it might be time to fire up the camera for the Pres...

Intrigued - yes, camera please!!!

 

[Bernard]

Intrigued - yes, camera please!!!

Now if only Justin (our resident pornographer) had some of them dots; we'd have pictures lickety-split.

 

[amey01]

2) Given the overall investment I have in my system, this is, for better or worse, a "relatively" insignificant amount. In addition, my listening space is my living room, which is small to begin with and happens to have large glass windows with a great view of the mountains. I simply did not want to aesthetically compromise the room, with acoustic treatments, to address the negative sonic impacts of a hard, reflective surface.

I guess when we see pictures of the room and the dots it might make more sense.

I was just intrigued as to why you chose these as a tweak and not anything else. The list of "cheap" (or "cheaper" at least) tweaks is never ending.........

dots,
shakkity rocks,
super stones,
cable supports,
cones,
spikes,
equipment supports,
seismic sinks,
exotic power cables,
power conditioning,
power regeneration,
power wall sockets,
contact enhancer,
contact cleaner,
silver treatment,
cryogenic treatment,
GSIC intellignet chips,
buffers,
green pens,
lens cleaners,
CD clarifiers,
valve rings,

ahh, I'm out of breath. Who wants to add to the list?

But as can be seen - quite easily, you could spend much more than your "significant investment" in components on tweaks.

My position on these sort of things has been stated many times - the money is usually better spent on conventional upgrades!

 

[Bernard]

I wonder if the dots are as effective if you have something like Tube Traps immediately behind your speakers, i.e. you subdue the back wave before it gets to the glass.

I just looked at the ASC site. Tube Traps have adjustable diffusion above 400 Hz. So if the diffusion part is used, they could make the problems associated with having glass walls even worse. OTOH the DIY John Risch trap uses a layer of polyester batting for HF absorption, per his site.

 

[Bernard]

ahh, I'm out of breath. Who wants to add to the list?

You forgot all of the snake oil that machina dynamica sells ! The clever little clock, the download over the phone, etc.

 

[MiTT]

I guess when we see pictures of the room and the dots it might make more sense.

I was just intrigued as to why you chose these as a tweak and not anything else. The list of "cheap" (or "cheaper" at least) tweaks is never ending.........

dots,
shakkity rocks,
super stones,
cable supports,
cones,
spikes,
equipment supports,
seismic sinks,
exotic power cables,
power conditioning,
power regeneration,
power wall sockets,
contact enhancer,
contact cleaner,
silver treatment,
cryogenic treatment,
GSIC intellignet chips,
buffers,
green pens,
lens cleaners,
CD clarifiers,
valve rings,

ahh, I'm out of breath. Who wants to add to the list?

But as can be seen - quite easily, you could spend much more than your "significant investment" in components on tweaks.

My position on these sort of things has been stated many times - the money is usually better spent on conventional upgrades!

Well, I would argue that at least as far as vibration control is concerned, the methods employed typically don't cost very much (comparitively), yield discernable differences, and are pretty firmly rooted in sound scientific and engineering principles.
Most of the ideas involved with vibration control are employed in every car you drive, every bridge you drive over, every building you enter, much of the sports equipment you might use, the computer you view this website on, possibly even your wrist watch. These are actually VERY conventional applications.

Again, my mantra concerning these sorts of tweaks has always been that if you have not experimented with them emperically - how can you say that they don't work or offer benefit? I can appreciate scepticism, but the true skeptic doesn't offer an opinion until he speaks from a position of informed opinion.

 

[DTB300]

Well, I would argue that at least as far as vibration control is concerned, the methods employed typically don't cost very much (comparitively), yield discernable differences, and are pretty firmly rooted in sound scientific and engineering principles.

Again, my mantra concerning these sorts of tweaks has always been that if you have not experimented with them emperically - how can you say that they don't work or offer benefit? I can appreciate scepticism, but the true skeptic doesn't offer an opinion until he speaks from a position of informed opinion.

Resonance/Vibration control through mass loading is something that can be done cheaply for someone's initial testing. Paving stones, bricks, sand bags, etc. are some of the cheap things that can be tried. Like everything else, if you do not like the change or cannot hear a change, don't worry about it, just move on.

But in my experience and testing, mass loading (as one form of resonance/vibration control) helps with components and speakers in my setup - YMMV.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Perhaps Ethan will chime in on this, but the bass traps are going to do just that, trap bass. Glass windows have a different reflective and resonant characteristic and will need something else entirely...

Jeff, you've been doing a great job explaining what is physically possible versus what is fantasy, so I haven't bothered to chime in. Basic science dictates that large reflecting surfaces require similarly large amounts of absorption to reduce the reflections. This is basic physics. Likewise, bass waves are very long, and no material only 1/16 inch thick will have any measurable - or audible - effect. It's just not possible.

--Ethan

 

[jtwrace]

Jeff, you've been doing a great job explaining what is physically possible versus what is fantasy, so I haven't bothered to chime in. Basic science dictates that large reflecting surfaces require similarly large amounts of absorption to reduce the reflections. This is basic physics. Likewise, bass waves are very long, and no material only 1/16 inch thick will have any measurable - or audible - effect. It's just not possible.

--Ethan

So are you saying that Gordon Gray's comments are all mental? Meaning what he thinks he hears is not possible?

 

[amey01]

Again, my mantra concerning these sorts of tweaks has always been that if you have not experimented with them emperically - how can you say that they don't work or offer benefit? I can appreciate scepticism, but the true skeptic doesn't offer an opinion until he speaks from a position of informed opinion.

No, I never said they don't work. Heck - I've got some tweaks in my own system!

My only point is that people can get carried away with it, and when they do they don't "see the forest for the trees", and next thing they've spent so much on tweaks they could have moved from Summits to CLXs and that's where I start to have a problem.

'Cos I know what would yield a greater improvement! mmmmmm - CLXs or a room full of exotic power cables and shakkity rocks!

 

[twich54]

So are you saying that Gordon Gray's comments are all mental? Meaning what he thinks he hears is not possible?

JT I think not, now if his 'corners' were made of glass and all he did was add a "few dots" than yes what Ethan says is true, Bass traps as we know them are for treatment of the corner loading of bass freq, thus their inherinet size.

It is my understanding that the dot thing on windows is merely for taming "spurious" and intermitent freg colorations off glass windows in other areas.

If I'm off base on this, I appoligize and will be sent to my room.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi ML Amigos,

For whatever reason, this thread reappeared and has generated some interesting comments.

Since I am technically challenged, I will hopefully post pictures of my room in the near future. Maybe before my buddy Rich does.

Some details of my room and setup.

Speaker panels are 5'-0" from the back wall, which has the large windows. The vertical angle of the panels are perpendicular to the floor with the help of Jason's wonderful spikes.

5'-6" from both side walls to centerline of panel. 7'-6" centerline of panel to centerline of panel. 9'-6" from panels to my ears.

Between the panels and the back wall are 5 - 5' to 6' tall plants. Wood floor with large area rug between me and the speakers.

In back of my listening chair is a center island and my kitchen.

Ceiling height is 28'.

The dots are in each corner of the windows, which are 6' X 9'. Two dots, angled at a 45 degree angle, per corner.

I've been involved with this wonderful hobby for some 30 years.

Mr. Winer seems to infer that my observations are based in "fantasy". Rest assured, Mr. Winer, that I am well founded in reality.

Whenever I try something new, I know that an in home audition is essential. This was the case when I auditioned the dots.

Regarding Amey's comments about tweeks and the proportional cost thereof, I am also well aware that one must audition these items with a healthy sense of skepticism. I, however, am loathe to make a general statement that hardware upgrades are generally a better investment to achieve sonic nirvana versus investigating "tweek" options. Dave has made some very valid points regarding resonance control and the very high price / point ratio thereof.

We all are familiar with "equipment flip" types who purchase a new piece of hardware and then it's listed on the Gon a month later.

I take this hobby very seriously because I love listening to music and know the amount of peace and tranquility that it can provide.

And after all is said and done, I trust my ears.

Chow.

GG