bought some vantages

[Steve Daigneault]

I hear you. I'm thinking of grabbing the Cary 805c w/ jensen caps on audiogon right now, and keeping the CJ, so I can do a side by side.

You think the Cary would sound closed in on the high end? I have an email in to Dennis Had, but that's my fear.

 

[Spike]

You think the Cary would sound closed in on the high end? I have an email in to Dennis Had, but that's my fear.

Dennis' philosophy has always been on the side of having beefy, over-engineered power-supplies in order to get consistent behavior of his amplifiers regardless of the music transient. I think that the Cary 805c will do fine driving the panels of your Vantage, but the best person to answer that is...Dennis, of course. He may be too busy at CES so you'll have to wait a bit for his response. While waiting, you should get the impedance curve of the Vantage's panels from ML just to get an idea of what kind of "torture" you're subjecting the 805c through. I imagine Dennis should see that impedance curve in order to have a definitive answer for ya. On the other hand, Dennis has always been gamed to modify/tweak/customize to match with the customer's preference, hence the "Brew-Meister" nickname. Run a few scenarios by him and see what he has to say. I'm pretty sure he'll make an attempt to accomodate for your request if possible. Good Luck.

Spike

 

[Steve Daigneault]

well, spoke with Martin Logan and with Cary, and they both thought that the 805c would work very well indeed. so, i may go for it, try it out, and keep the one i like better.

things get more complicated. i've had my modwright pre and VSE modded sony playing nonstop for the past 3 days. today i come home to turn on my amp, and do a little listening, and WOAH... the sound has really opened up and the tone has gotten a lot better, yet the control is still there. the VAC always seemed a little loosey goosey, not much, but more than what's happening now in my system. there is a quickness that is very musical. to hear that quickness with the tone getting bigger is very enjoyable, and now i'm not so sure i should be doing ANYTHING until things settle down some more. i know that the modwright had some black gates and bybees put in it back in late Sept., and i dont think the guy i bought it from really broke it in. that, and the VSE mods are absolutely new, as are my speakers. All this, with a sovtek 6922 and that pair of ICs that I need to replace with something better...

still, i'm very curious to hear the cary 805c. i'm apprehensive that it'll be too mushy or closed in, but i think it's worth a listen, and would be a lot of fun trying it all out.

 

[Spike]

there is a quickness that is very musical. to hear that quickness with the tone getting bigger is very enjoyable, and now i'm not so sure i should be doing ANYTHING until things settle down some more. i know that the modwright had some black gates and bybees put in it back in late Sept., and i dont think the guy i bought it from really broke it in.

I think that the VSE mods & your speakers are coming around the break-in period. Hard to believe that the ModWright pre has not been broken in, but very possible. But then the quickness and the bigger tone are both characteristics of the ModWright implementation using 5687 tubes, so I do wonder... What tubes are you using in the ModWright? You should try TungSol.

still, i'm very curious to hear the cary 805c. i'm apprehensive that it'll be too mushy or closed in, but i think it's worth a listen, and would be a lot of fun trying it all out.

Mushy and closed in are the last adjectives I associate with the Cary 805c I think they will complement your system very well.

Spike

 

[Steve Daigneault]

i've got cryo'd tungsols in the modwright. all those upgrades were new at the end of september, and i dont think the guy played the pre much. he said he hardly used it after getting it back from dan and getting the upgrades.

the 805c that i'm looking at has upgraded jensen caps and some GE 211s with a sylvanie 6SL7. it'll be a very interesting comparison. we'll see what happens!

in the meantime, i've got a balanced power tech. unit coming with a separate transformer for the pre and a separate one for the cd player. i'll post impressions once i get it.

one thing i'm very impressed with are the highs. silky, smooth and airy. really really nice.

 

[Audio Pharaoh]

Black Gates.....

so, after taking some time to reconstruct my system (I need to update my virtual system here), I'm listening to my Vantages for the first time. I have to say that my first impression is that they sound fairly closed in and a bit congested. Auxilliary equipment:

ModWright SWL 9.0 SE preamp + black gate and bybee upgrades
Sony 9000 w/ VSE Level 5 mod
Jadis DA 5 amp (40w/channel)

The ModWright is likely still breaking in some with the upgrades, and the VSE mod is absolutely new. The Vantages are sure to still need break in time, so I'm going to be patient.

On the plus side, they are absolutely smooth, not etched, and the bass is very well integrated, much better than my Aerius i, which I thought were very good at integrating the panel with the woofer.

My amp will change in the next day or so to a CJ Premier 140, and I'm also going to be adding a BPT balanced power conditioner with separate transformers for the preamp and the cd player.

I'll keep a little log as things progress and change.

Congrats Steve,

Yes, you'll need a LOT of patience !! BG's take forever to break-in (well..not exactly forever..lol), ML Panels also take sometime (around 200-300 hours), your new CD mods will also need sometime..Best guess would be a 500 hour mark before any final conclusions..

Enjoy !

AP

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Steve,
I would also give the CJ some time also. Both my CJ pieces took a bit to "warm up" and sound great. My dealer told me that my amp would take almost a month to break in, I.E. 40 hours or better of running.
My only comment about tube rolling is be careful. There are many variables to be aware of and you are changing the design characteristics of a piece of equipment by making radical tube changes. To me and probably only me, tube rolling is like cables, they all have specific design and specific sound qualities which will change the sound of a piece of equipment. What works for someone else may not for you and visa versa. The question I ask if is why am I making these changes and why do I want to change the attributes of this piece I own. Would it be better to buy another one??
hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Just my 2 cents worth of being an old guy


Jeff

 

[Steve Daigneault]

Tube rolling has always provided incredible positive improvements. Always. I haven't heard a NOS tube sound worse than a current production tube yet. Admittedly I only purchase the recommended tube, but it surprised me the first time I heard a NOS tube the difference they could make.

RE: the Cary 805c... after some apprehension about that amp not working well, being too soft on top or closed in, I've gone ahead and purchased one and it'll likely be here in a couple of weeks. Whichever amp sounds best will stay, the other will hit audiogon!

(Tonight, the sound is back to sounding anemic again... ah well)

 

[Steve Daigneault]

While waiting, you should get the impedance curve of the Vantage's panels from ML just to get an idea of what kind of "torture" you're subjecting the 805c through.

Martin Logan just told me that they don't give out their impedence curves. Jim Power said that he thought the Cary 805c would sound great though, and said that i should go for it.

Anyway, just thought you'd like to know, ML doesn't give out impedence curves, which I guess leaves it up to reviewers to measure them?

 

[Spike]

Martin Logan just told me that they don't give out their impedence curves. Jim Power said that he thought the Cary 805c would sound great though, and said that i should go for it.

Oh well, we tried It's good that Jim Power thinks possitively about the Cary 805C. I think you'll be happy with 'em monoblocs on your Vantage panels, albeit different sound characteristics than the VAC, but at least you'll be on the...same playing field (for comparision purposes)

Spike

 

[Steve Daigneault]

Well, I've had the Cary 805c for a few days, and it's immediately clear that they are much better than the CJ 140. at least to these ears they are. The CJ is extended and controls the speakers very well, but the Cary 805c are more open, liquid, revealing and have the right tone, a real life tone. I'm learning how important that tone is for me to enjoy listening to music.

I put in some Bill Evans this morning, and as soon as the music began, I smiled, and had this confirmation inside, that THIS was what it was supposed to sound like, this was worth the crazy $$ i've put into my stereo. I questioned my purchases with the CJ, thinking that it just wasn't better enough over mid-fi gear to justify the price.

in regards to wattage, etc, the cary's have no problem in my apartment with the music i listen to. they've been modified to take either 845 or 211 tubes, and the 211's i have now sound incredible (GEs). I've got some superTNT 845s coming, and other new tubes as well, so i'm sure things will just improve as i dial in the right NOS tubes. i'm already very very happy. now, i need to sell this CJ!

 

[Spike]

Congrats!!

It's great to hear that the Cary 805C are working out for you. It's all about achieving synergy at the system level and you've done your homework well putting together a first-rate system where each component in the chain complements all of the others in the system. Especially true with ML speakers, it's not about the power and its delivery at low-impedance, but more importantly the detailed execution of the circuitry to deal with a wide impedance range of the speakers. Now, dim the lights, sit back, relax and enjoy the music.

Spike

 

[tonyc]

Congratulations on getting your Vantages and on getting your system dialed in! I have followed this thread with interest since I have never had tube amps in my system and wonder what might work well with ML. Guess I'll just let you adventurous types figure it out for me!

 

[Steve Daigneault]

Dont get me wrong, the CJ was very nice. I think that if I was coming from solid state, I might have loved the CJ, it had more of a grip on the speaker. everything was controlled. the Cary is more liquid, and with more bloom. notes decay longer, and pressurize the room more. the CJ is very balanced, good from bottom to top. the cary sounds a little emphasized in the mids, or maybe not quite as extended in the highs. the CJ's highs were exceptionally airy. But still too anemic for me. which some might feel is more realistic. but it was missing that pressurized, full and open tone that i find so appealing. it transports me instantly. the CJ just never transported me, even though i'm sure on paper it probably measures so much better than the cary.

one important thing i think i realize too is that zero negative feedback is key to an amp sounding good. turn up the negative feedback, and the cary's start to sound more like the CJs.