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Bi-wiring experience

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musicman

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Hi all,

I read this forum extensively and I have learn a lot about hi-fi and Martin Logan, perhaps I should post more often but I'm not that good with words. Anyway here is my experience with bi-wiring my Ascent which I hope will help others here make their Logans sings. A year ago I change my CD player ahnd about the same time I have replace my speakers cable (MIT-4 bi-wire) for a single pair of wires with locking banana just because sometimes I have to push the connectors of My MIT at the back of my power amps because it was a little loose fitting. Before all these changes my system was very musical. As time passes I realize that now when I was listening to my system I kept decreasing the volume because the sound was a little harch and irritating as the listening session went on, before it was the other around.

Then my friend sold his speakers (Gershman) to his brother (which live in the Toronto area) for an upgrade. The other week he went visit his brother and they went shopping for the electronics. They stop by this shop and met a very nice man (Peter at Audio Excellence Yorkville) and they bought a Musical Fidelity integrated and CD player with all the cables necessary to connect his speaker. Peter says that he needs bi-wiring with these speakers to perform at their best (my friend being a little skeptical). He was right because when they connected the system together back home, my friend says that he had never heard those speakers perform this way, and he had the chance to listen to them with different well known electronics. When he told me that story a flash came to my memory and I said to myself I have to get my MIT cable (still having them) and try them again.

I got home, sat down and listen to my system, then I went to the closet to get my MIT cable and connect them, put the system back on Et Voila my logan were singing again the music was literally floating in the air, no more harsness or auditive fatique. Just to make sure that it was not psychological I call my friend to drop by to have a listen to a couple of good CD,s I bought.
After a minute of listening and looked at me and said something has changed in your system, it souds more musical. AH! It is not psychological, it is for reel. Now I tell him is it the cable or because it is bi-wire. So I head for the speakers and disconnect a pair of connectors and put back the metal jumper leaving the same cable but now it was single wire. The music start playing and within 30 seconds we were back to square one, the Logans were not singing anymore, the harshness was back and the music wasn,t floating in the air anymore. Remove the jumper, connect back the pair of connector and now my Logans are singing again. For me bi-wiring my Ascent really works. Those who have not try bi-wire on their Logans should definitely check this out.

Perhaps Roberto could explain to us the reasons why it makes a difference.

Musicman
 

roberto

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musicman said:
Hi all,

I read this forum extensively and I have learn a lot about hi-fi and Martin Logan, perhaps I should post more often but I'm not that good with words. Anyway here is my experience with bi-wiring my Ascent which I hope will help others here make their Logans sings. A year ago I change my CD player ahnd about the same time I have replace my speakers cable (MIT-4 bi-wire) for a single pair of wires with locking banana just because sometimes I have to push the connectors of My MIT at the back of my power amps because it was a little loose fitting. Before all these changes my system was very musical. As time passes I realize that now when I was listening to my system I kept decreasing the volume because the sound was a little harch and irritating as the listening session went on, before it was the other around.

Then my friend sold his speakers (Gershman) to his brother (which live in the Toronto area) for an upgrade. The other week he went visit his brother and they went shopping for the electronics. They stop by this shop and met a very nice man (Peter at Audio Excellence Yorkville) and they bought a Musical Fidelity integrated and CD player with all the cables necessary to connect his speaker. Peter says that he needs bi-wiring with these speakers to perform at their best (my friend being a little skeptical). He was right because when they connected the system together back home, my friend says that he had never heard those speakers perform this way, and he had the chance to listen to them with different well known electronics. When he told me that story a flash came to my memory and I said to myself I have to get my MIT cable (still having them) and try them again.

I got home, sat down and listen to my system, then I went to the closet to get my MIT cable and connect them, put the system back on Et Voila my logan were singing again the music was literally floating in the air, no more harsness or auditive fatique. Just to make sure that it was not psychological I call my friend to drop by to have a listen to a couple of good CD,s I bought.
After a minute of listening and looked at me and said something has changed in your system, it souds more musical. AH! It is not psychological, it is for reel. Now I tell him is it the cable or because it is bi-wire. So I head for the speakers and disconnect a pair of connectors and put back the metal jumper leaving the same cable but now it was single wire. The music start playing and within 30 seconds we were back to square one, the Logans were not singing anymore, the harshness was back and the music wasn,t floating in the air anymore. Remove the jumper, connect back the pair of connector and now my Logans are singing again. For me bi-wiring my Ascent really works. Those who have not try bi-wire on their Logans should definitely check this out.

Perhaps Roberto could explain to us the reasons why it makes a difference.

Musicman
Hola Musicman. I´m going to do my best. First of all, it could be because you are using twice copper or silver in the cable and there will be less resistance and would be easier to get the info from the amp to the speaker. Also, there is a Theorem by Mr. Koppler, if I´m not wrong, that he states that any signal applied to any crossover has a rejected signal back. Usually the lenght of this rejected signal is about 1.33 meters, so this is why the 1.5 meter cables are more musical than the ones that are short. Please understand that this is my liking, and not necessary yours. Some people might think or believe that this is wrong, short sounds better for them. But in my case, my speaker cables have a length of 2 meters for the same reason and are bi-wired. I like them better with this size. Because my CLS IIz only have two wire posts, I use two different connectors, one spade and other banana, so both are connected with no problem. Here is something that I got from Mr. Vansevers regarding cables:..."AXIOM #1: Because of the tunneling effect and piezoelectric and triboelectric properties, wire is microphonic. As a result, energy from a mechanical resonance affects the flow of electrical energy through a conductor in such a way as to audibly emphasize the notes and overtones that coincide with the frequency of that resonance. If we change the way a conductor (wire or PC traces) vibrates and/or resonates, we change the way it sounds. Thus, in a sense, wire can be thought of as a “mechanical” tone control."...
Hope this can help...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 
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musicman

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Thanks for your explanation, Peter also mentioned the crossover feedback, it certainly make sense as all the other point that you mentioned. I don't know why the first time that I replace the MIT cable with the single wiring I didn't notice the difference, but I think that at the same time I have change my CD player and I thought it was not burned yet. But for me it the difference between a good sounding system ande an incredible sounding system.
Hope somebody will try it with his Logans and had the same result that I had.

Musicman
 

Robin

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"Mechanical" Tone Control...

roberto said:
Hola Musicman. I´m going to do my best. First of all, it could be becasue your are using twice copper or silver in the cable and there will be less resistance and would be easier to get the info from the amp to the speaker. Also there is a Theorem by Mr. Koppler if I´m not wrong, that he states that any signal applied to any crossover has a rejected signal back. Usually the lenght of this rejected signal is about 1.33 meters, so this is why the 1.5 meter cables are more musical than the ones that are short. Please understand that this is my liking, and not necessary yours. Some people might think or believe that this is wrong, short sounds better for them. But in my case, my speaker cables have a length of 2 meters for the same reason and are bi-wired. I like them better with this size. Because my CLS IIz only have two wire posts, I use two different connectors, one spade and other banana, so both are connected with no problem. Here is something that I got from Mr. Vansevers regarding cables:..."AXIOM #1: Because of the tunneling effect and piezoelectric and triboelectric properties, wire is microphonic. As a result, energy from a mechanical resonance affects the flow of electrical energy through a conductor in such a way as to audibly emphasize the notes and overtones that coincide with the frequency of that resonance. If we change the way a conductor (wire or PC traces) vibrates and/or resonates, we change the way it sounds. Thus, in a sense, wire can be thought of as a “mechanical” tone control."...
Hope this can help...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
Roberto,

I think your explaination was just excellent regarding the properties of wire. ;)

Thank you, Roberto :)
 
K

Khairil

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biwiring the vantage

May I seek the the opinion of the forum as to which bi-wires work well with ML speakers, particularly the vantage.

I have been a long time user of MIT cables and interconnects, but dread the idea of using them for biwiring owing to the weight of the slabs of metals (junction boxes?).

My current speaker wires are mit 850 cvt single endeds, which worked well with my watt puppies.

With thanks in anticipation for your views.

Khairil
 

attyonline

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Then again, you were conditioned to expect an improvement given the experience of your brother so you heard what you wanted (expected?) to hear.
 

lexor

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bi/wire

i tried the bi-wire scene with my Sl3's and i heard no difference at all, and the amount of trouble i went to to do it was not worth the effort. i am not saying you didn't hear a difference, but i sure didn't.
 

Peter Hogan

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roberto said:
AXIOM #1: Because of the tunneling effect and piezoelectric and triboelectric properties, wire is microphonic. As a result, energy from a mechanical resonance affects the flow of electrical energy through a conductor in such a way as to audibly emphasize the notes and overtones that coincide with the frequency of that resonance. If we change the way a conductor (wire or PC traces) vibrates and/or resonates, we change the way it sounds. Thus, in a sense, wire can be thought of as a “mechanical” tone control."...
Hi,
Not to start an argument, but the level of the effects being talked about there (tunneling, piezoelectric, and triboelectric), versus the level of electrical power in a speaker wire means they will have no effect. It might be thought of as saying if you added a drop of water to the ocean, you will raise its level. In the real world, the difference would be completely imperceptible.

My .02,
Peter
 

roberto

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Peter Hogan said:
Hi,
Not to start an argument, but the level of the effects being talked about there (tunneling, piezoelectric, and triboelectric), versus the level of electrical power in a speaker wire means they will have no effect. It might be thought of as saying if you added a drop of water to the ocean, you will raise its level. In the real world, the difference would be completely imperceptible.

My .02,
Peter
Hola Peter...I do understand your point. The good of this is, if you hear it, it is o.k, and if you don´t, It is o.k. too. I don´t know if you design in electronics, but when you do, your proto-type is so different to the final product. When you start to build, and the funniest thing is that, you are using the same values and same components, and the sound is so different to your proto-type. Why is this? Wire and pc traces, believe it or not, are the ones that are different in all your work. So this little things affects the performance of the final product. But again, if you can hear it, it is ok, if not, it is o.k. Some of us, we do. We can hear the difference in wires and connectors. Can you explain why a copper wire sounds different than another brand using copper? This is the best explination that I have got. Little things, combined together, makes one bigger and so...it is a never ending thing. Happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

DTB300

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roberto said:
Some of us, we do. We can hear the difference in wires and connectors.
I know I hear a difference with Cables and Connectors. I am not concerned with why there is a difference, my concern is what sound do I like better.

Dan
 

Peter Hogan

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roberto said:
Hola Peter...I do understand your point. The good of this is, if you hear it, it is o.k, and if you don´t, It is o.k. too. I don´t know if you design in electronics, but when you do, your proto-type is so different to the final product. When you start to build, and the funniest thing is that, you are using the same values and same components, and the sound is so different to your proto-type. Why is this? Wire and pc traces, believe it or not, are the ones that are different in all your work. So this little things affects the performance of the final product. But again, if you can hear it, it is ok, if not, it is o.k. Some of us, we do. We can hear the difference in wires and connectors. Can you explain why a copper wire sounds different than another brand using copper? This is the best explination that I have got. Little things, combined together, makes one bigger and so...it is a never ending thing. Happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
Hi,
The differences you note between prototype and production versions will be much more due to inductance and capacitance changes between them (different trace widths, spacings, different wire lengths, gauges, bundling, routing, connectors, etc.) than due to tunneling, piezoelectric, and triboelectric effects.

I've designed front-end amps for mass spectrometers, and at the ultra high impedances, and ultra low currents these work at (they are sensitive enough to count individual electrons) the tunneling, piezoelectric, and triboelectric effects become important, but at the signal levels in stereo and home theater, these effects are so small that they can be ignored. If you want numbers, one ampere of current is equal to 6.2 times 10 to the 18 power of electrons flowing past a point, per second. This is a more than a million, million, million times greater signal than what I was measuring, hence my drop in the ocean comparison...:)

My.02
Peter
 
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roberto

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Peter Hogan said:
Hi,
The differences you note between prototype and production versions will be much more due to inductance and capacitance changes between them (different trace widths, spacings, different wire lengths, gauges, bundling, routing, connectors, etc.) than due to tunneling, piezoelectric, and triboelectric effects.

I've designed front-end amps for mass spectrometers, and at the ultra high impedances, and ultra low currents these work at (they are sensitive enough to count individual electrons) the tunneling, piezoelectric, and triboelectric effects become important, but at the signal levels in stereo and home theater, these effects are so small that they can be ignored. If you want numbers, one ampere of current is equal to 6.2 times 10 to the 18 power of electrons flowing past a point, per second. This is a more than a million, million, million times greater signal than what I was measuring, hence my drop in the ocean comparison...:)

My.02
Peter
Hola Peter...you are right!...the capacitance, the inductance and also, resistance affects more the proto-type sound than any other thing...agreed with you 100%...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

Jazzplayer

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Biwiring

Hello, with my Aeon-i's biwire makes a big difference, like a curtain that has been lifted. This is with 4m Nordost Blue Heaven cabling, compared to the same cable running in single wire.

I think hearing the difference with biwire depends on where in the system the "weak link" is. If some other part of the system is not up to par, the difference with the biwire may not be so easy to detect.

Svein
 

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