Best speaker cable for CLS?

[C.A.P]

I'm sorry, I followed that link and immediately had a 'snake-oil' alarm go off in my head.

The dude says:



Sorry, but one does not transfer any signal other than Pos/Neg from an amp to the speaker. That 'dc voltage' thing and extra pair is pure BS!

I agree 100% , DC is not something I want in my signal path to the speakers.

I do buy into the solid core copper vs. the multi stranded wire. Just not that cable. I believe a well made CAT5 type of cable can compete with many high end types. I have seen Jon Richs design and have not tried it! Its based off a Belden solid core copper shielded crossed wired design. His testing has shown it to be as good as some real high end cables with fancy outer sheaths and shrink wrap to trick you into believing that bigger and prettier are better !

 

[nsgarch]

Despite your doubts,

Jim Power has already confirmed to me that this was/is indeed a ML product, supplied in bulk to some of their biggest dealers. I won't speculate about the purpose of the DC voltage pair, but it is a real MartinLogan product, I did my homework on that! Perhaps one of you Thomases would be so kind as to contact Jim or the seller and find out how that extra pair is used (probably an AC power trigger would be my guess )

The main quality of these cables is that they're very low capacitance due to the minimum number of strands, which makes stats very happy. BTW, according to Jim, these were made exclusively for ML, to their specs!

 

[TomDac]

Those "music charge" cables have been on e-bay for about a year. Not sure how much of it the guy has, but I believe that if it was any good, ML would be selling it, or at least using it in their corporate listening rooms. And I believe the internal wiring that ML uses for it's speakers is Kimber.

Cables are cables. Find some that your ears like and be done with it.

 

[User211]

Cables are cables. Find some that your ears like and be done with it.

Solid. Down to earth...

I stopped when I found 4 2.5 metre lengths of Nordost Red Dawn rev II on ebay years ago to bi-wire my Ascents. Excellent stuff - smooooooooth and very detailed. The panels love it. Not really thought much about it since. Looks cool, too.

 

[nsgarch]

Those "music charge" cables have been on e-bay for about a year. Not sure how much of it the guy has, but I believe that if it was any good, ML would be selling it, or at least using it in their corporate listening rooms. And I believe the internal wiring that ML uses for it's speakers is Kimber.

ML may have provided this cable to dealers who were doing in-wall installations. Check w/ JP if you want to know for sure, but don't guess. It might be an excellent deal, espesially for smaller stats or center channels. If you want to read JP's email to me which I posted a year ago, it's right here: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showpost.php?p=52592&postcount=4

Cables are cables. Find some that your ears like and be done with it.

That sounds very romantic but not very practical. Like, I mean, how many do you decide to sample? It takes some work/research just to come up with a short list.

 

[TomDac]

very interesting, Neil.... Thanks for that post.. a good refresher for the "music source" cables on ebay...


so how about this idea: Anyone got any spare cables laying around that they'd be willing to offer up as a travelling package to MLC members interested in doing some comparisons? I have a spare set of Monster M1's from 1988 that I'll throw into the mix...

 

[nsgarch]

Anyone got any spare cables laying around that they'd be willing to offer up as a travelling package to MLC members interested in doing some comparisons? I have a spare set of Monster M1's from 1988 that I'll throw into the mix...

I think that would be a lovely idea Tom. I was loaning out my signal tube collection to folks with MC275's and C220's to help them decide what kind of sound they wanted before spending a ton of money. Unfortunately, many of them bought the tubes, so eventually that destroyed the lending library!

I think to do something like that with speaker cables, would require some serious research. You wouldn't want to include cables which no matter how well respected were simply inappropriate for stats -- like Cardas GR's or your Monsters (too highly stranded = hi capacitance.) I guess I'd select a dozen or so of the most popular manufacturers we members use and then go straight to them and ask them for a 3 meter pair of their lowest priced cable that they feel represents their "house" sound. I bet they'd be happy to work with us (they'd be fools not to!)

 

[Webinattor]

I think that would be a lovely idea Tom. I was loaning out my signal tube collection to folks with MC275's and C220's to help them decide what kind of sound they wanted before spending a ton of money. Unfortunately, many of them bought the tubes, so eventually that destroyed the lending library!

I think to do something like that with speaker cables, would require some serious research. You wouldn't want to include cables which no matter how well respected were simply inappropriate for stats -- like Cardas GR's or your Monsters (too highly stranded = hi capacitance.) I guess I'd select a dozen or so of the most popular manufacturers we members use and then go straight to them and ask them for a 3 meter pair of their lowest priced cable that they feel represents their "house" sound. I bet they'd be happy to work with us (they'd be fools not to!)

Ok, what have I messed up now? I have thick monsters biwired to my speakers. Please explain why the strands are bad.

 

[MiTT]

I'm sorry, I followed that link and immediately had a 'snake-oil' alarm go off in my head.

The dude says:



Sorry, but one does not transfer any signal other than Pos/Neg from an amp to the speaker. That 'dc voltage' thing and extra pair is pure BS!

I don't know anythjing about these cables, but there are a lot of folks that are using a DC bias current as a shielding mechanism in their very high end cables. Synergistic Research was the first to do it about 6 years ago as far as I know, but since then many others including Tara Labs, AudioQuest, Mapleshade and others use the technique in their highest end cables.

There is a difference in the noise level when you disengage or deactivate the shield that I can notice on both my interconnects and speaker cables. Conversely, I cannot engage the active shielding on the same cables running from my tonearm to my phonostage because it actually increases the noise level on those very low level signals.

 

[TomDac]

Ok, what have I messed up now? I have thick monsters biwired to my speakers. Please explain why the strands are bad.

Yeah.. I have been using Monster M1 forever.. and I mean FOREVER..Tell us why it's bad, please.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Senior Neal speaks the truth. Again.

Senior Neal stated the following in his first post to this thread:

"I think that tubes with stats are 'the answer' (emphasis added) as everyone here knows".

Gee. I didn't know that. This is a true discovery for me after owning four (4) different ML models over the last 25 years of my life. Previous to that, I owned the Acoustat One + One's.

I really appreciate this fact and have now become much more enlightened as to what the "answer" really is.

I guess, because I currently have a SS preamp and amp, I need to re-evaluate my hearing so I can experience the ultimate truth in music listening.

It's really a bummer because I really like the way my system sounds, and come to find out it is only a ruse and a product of my imagination.

Guess I'll have to sell my CJ preamp and Pass Labs amplifier and get some tubes (Neal, do you recommend MacIntosh? :rocker: I have had other tube equipment in my various ML systems over the years) so I can discover the musical truth that has been lurking in my ML's and yet to be released.

I really look forward to that day of musical salvation so I can discover what everyone here already (apparently) knows.

GG

PS: Regarding your observations about the ARC gear, I really think you should send Bill Johnson a letter explaining your specific performance / design concerns.

 

[twich54]

Man Gordon....now you have me really confused.........do I listen through my Rogue MonoBlocks tonite or put my Plinius back into the mix ???? LOL !!!

 

[nsgarch]

Yeah.. I have been using Monster M1 forever.. and I mean FOREVER..Tell us why it's bad, please.

First, I want to say I was really impressed by Tim Bingaman's active shielding suggestion (did you go to MiTT?)

To respond to Tom and some others: I've read Roger Sanders' speaker cable white paper, and talked to him extensively about the optimum qualities desirable in speaker cables used with ESL's. His ideas are echoed by Jon Risch and other audio engineers. I have also been in touch with one of the fellows at Purist Audio Design who has a pair of Summits, and was using their Venustas speaker cable (same ones I use) but who recently switched them out (because he can!) for their new Provectus cable, which is their first solid conductor design. He said the results were a noticable improvement even over the Venustas (damn!) So I've requested a demo set of course!

The bottom line is that electostats (which are really great big unrolled capacitors) and the amps that drive them like to see speaker cables with:

1. Low capacitance
2. Low inductance
3. Some resistance (to help damp supersonic oscillations resulting from the inductance/capacitance circuit created by the panel-and-transformer.

* Note: it's really hard to design a cable that does both 1 and 2! Roger uses a coaxial design, but it sounds dry to me. Purist's new solid core design uses a separate cable for the (+) run and the (-) run to each speaker.

If you want to read Roger's white paper on the subject, it's on his website at: http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/Cables WP.htm

 

[TomDac]

Hey Neil,

when you request a demo set, how does that work? I'd love to see if I can hear the difference.

Tom.

 

[nsgarch]

Senior Neal stated the following in his first post to this thread:"I think that tubes with stats are 'the answer' (emphasis added) as everyone here knows".

Hi Gordon
First, let me fix my horribly ambiguous grammar! I meant it to say "As everyone here knows, I think that tubes with stats are 'the answer' ". Of course that too is a bit of an assumption, but not the outrageous remark as you read it Second, I'm a Ne-il not a Ne-al

As for my comments about the ARC sound: my own all-ARC system was really great; but then again, it was my first really expensive system, and my first all tube system. And the first to drive my CLS's. The amp had the FET front end, probably not ARC's finest hour, but what did I know. I'd probably still have them except space constraints forced their sale. I then had a very fine all-Levinson system. It was better than the ARC tube system (still with the CLS's) but something was missing that I couldn't quite identify. Until one night a friend brought over an ARC amp (that needed new tubes for sure.) It didn't image well and didn't have the sparkle of my Levinson 23.5 but it had that elusive breath of life in the midrange, and I knew a change was at hand!

As for the McIntosh MC275 I use now, I chose it based on a list of features I wanted in a new amp: It had to be stereo 100W/ch (I didn't have room for monoblocks) it had to have balanced inputs (because I have an 8 meter pair of Purist IC's from the preamp) and it had to be electrostat-friendly, which McIntosh tube amps turn out to be because of their dual-winding output transformers and hi-gain design. I really couldn't find that combo in anything non-monoblocks. Lucky for me it sounded so good with the CLS's!

 

[Gordon Gray]

Man Gordon....now you have me really confused.........do I listen through my Rogue MonoBlocks tonite or put my Plinius back into the mix ???? LOL !!!

Je ne sais pas, mon ami.

GG

 

[nsgarch]

Hey Neil, when you request a demo set, how does that work? I'd love to see if I can hear the difference. Tom.

Well, forget getting a pair from Purist. It's a new product and they just don't have any. I'm getting a pair that a dealer I know ordered for inventory, but I haven't heard anything yet. When I've heard them (and if they're really all that), I'll see if I can have Albert send them to you when he gets them back. If not, I might be talked into letting you hear my Venustas while I audition the Provectus

 

[nsgarch]

Provectus in the house!

Well, forget getting a pair from Purist. It's a new product and they just don't have any. I'm getting a pair that a dealer I know ordered for inventory, but I haven't heard anything yet. When I've heard them (and if they're really all that), I'll see if I can have Albert send them to you when he gets them back. If not, I might be talked into letting you hear my Venustas while I audition the Provectus

These new Purist solid core cables have been sitting here for a week but I finally deployed them last night. Here's what I wrote Albert Porter (and his response)

Hi Albert,
I just installed the Provectus cables tonight. So I'll burn them in for a week as often as I can, but my initial impression is that my system has enough resolution in it to benefit from even higher quality peripherals! Damn! Usually it's the other way around and people spend excessively on peripherals that exceed the sonic capacity of their system, and then wonder why they hear no difference ;--)
Of course, if I just wanted to try different cables, I would have tried a pair of Dominus a long time ago. But as I previously explained, this is all about what works best with stats, especially after some research and my conversations with Roger Sanders. With that in mind, I would appreciate your asking someone at Purist to provide you/me with the following specs, for both the Venustas and the Provectus speaker cables:

• capacitance, in pF/foot or pF/m
• resistance, in ohms/foot or /m
• inductance in mH/ft or /m (I imagine this spec would be near zero for the Provectus since the two runs are nominally far apart.) But please make sure to ask if the specs for the Provectus are for one run or both runs if they don't specify ;-)

Back to the sound. A bit more coherence (intelligibility of lyrics for instance) due to less time smear I'd guess. More air, and a cleaner soundstage image (again more accurate timing I bet) But the most pleasing thing (to me) was the elimination of the last little bit of high frequency emphasis so common with stats (it was minimal in my system anyway, but the Provectus' got rid of that last little bit and again I think it was the solid conductors AND to some degree the fact that the conductors are pure copper not alloy.) And last, a slightly blacker background than the Venustas (splitting hairs here) but I bet it's because each of the two conductors has it own fluid jacket!

Sorry for my foot-dragging, I've been busy getting some projects out to builders who are desperate for work of course! I'll take care of those shipping charges this week also. Too much going on for an old man! As Willie Nelson recently remarked, "I've outlived my dick!" I know just how he feels . . . . . . . . . BTW, if you want to have that phone chat, just email and we'll figure out a good time. That would be fun!.

Again, thanks for everything,
Neil

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Neil, Glad the audition is off to such a great start. Here is data on Provectus:

• capacitance, in pF/foot or pF/m Answer: Separate conductors mean ZERO Capacitance provided the cables are kept reasonably well apart.
• resistance, in ohms/foot or /m Answer: 13.3 Millohms per meter.
• inductance in mH/ft or /m (I imagine this spec would be near zero for the Provectus since the two runs are nominally far apart.) But please make sure to ask if the specs for the Provectus are for one run or both runs if they don't specify ;--) Yes, inductance is basically Zero.
• You didn't ask, but current capability is 25 amps for this cable.

Albert Porter

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My comments: These cables are amazing with stats and would be my choice for any electrostat, full-range or hybrid. They consist of two separate fluid-jacketed cables per channel. They are expensive (as all Purist products) but impeccably constructed and carry a lifetime warranty. They are 9 AWG and triple cryomag processed. They will bring out all the accuracy an electrostat can deliver. I think it might be possible to 'roll your own' and/or investigate other solid core designs. I personally think the most innovative/important aspect of the Purist design (besides the solid conductors) is the separated runs. Nothing does away with capacitance and inductance better than that! More in a couple of weeks.

 

[Bernard]

My comments: These cables are amazing with stats and would be my choice for any electrostat, full-range or hybrid. They consist of two separate fluid-jacketed cables per channel. They are expensive (as all Purist products) but impeccably constructed and carry a lifetime warranty.

So theoretically if you have monoblocks sitting right next to the speakers you can have extremely short lengths spaced well apart between the amps and the speakers, unless of course there is a minimum length requirement (discussion in anothe thread). Are they available in short lengths, and priced accordingly?

 

[nsgarch]

minimum speaker cable length?

So theoretically if you have monoblocks sitting right next to the speakers you can have extremely short lengths spaced well apart between the amps and the speakers, unless of course there is a minimum length requirement (discussion in anothe thread). Are they available in short lengths, and priced accordingly?

I've heard that IC's should be at least3ft/1m but nothing with regard to speaker cables. And if true, a lot depends on the cross-sectional geometry (topology) the designer chose for his conductor/shield/insulation and the materials. If you have a very short distance between amp and speaker no more than 3 feet, 2 separate runs of properly terminated 10AWG minimum solid copper conductor (Home Depot?) would most likely be indistinguishable in sound from an expensive manufactured cable. And you could experiment with cryo, sand filled jacket, etc.

All Purist speaker cables have 9" +/- pigtails at each end, in addition to the stated cable length, so it seems to me that at least with Purist, anything under 2 meters would be a waste of money since the cost of the terminations are probably 75% of the total cost of a short cable! But you should discuss such fine points with them; there may be other issues of which I'm unaware.