BalancedForce Demo

MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum

Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:

sleepysurf

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2005
Messages
2,564
Reaction score
38
Location
Tampa, FL
I saw a post (on another Forum) mentioning a video of KEF's "Force Cancelling" driver technology... How Force Cancelling Driver Technology Eliminates Cabinet Vibrations

I thought, hey, ML has been doing something similar for YEARS, firstly with their BalancedForce subs, and lately in their Masterpiece series as well.

Years ago, I tested this with my BF 210 subs (as ML once demo'd) by balancing a nickel on the cabinet, and playing deep bass tracks. The result was impressive. I decided to repeat this with my ML Expression 13A's. Here's the result...

 
Last edited:

amey01

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
5,127
Reaction score
75
Location
Queensland, Australia
I thought, hey, ML has been doing something similar for YEARS,
They've been doing it for longer than the BalancedForce - that was the "more cost-attractive" version. The Descent and Depth were more sophisticated balanced designs, similarly the Statement - albeit expensive to manufacture.

Mind you - I don't think the coin test proves much - I reckon you could balance a coin on any speaker. It would have to be a pretty screwed-up design to vibrate so much it can knock a coin over ??

Funnily enough - I've got a [very unbalanced] KEF 10b in the kids' area at home - I'll give it a try and report back. I might prove myself wrong!
 
Last edited:

sleepysurf

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 11, 2005
Messages
2,564
Reaction score
38
Location
Tampa, FL
Another option might be a smartphone Vibration Measuring App. However, I don't know how accurate they are, and results might vary depending on phone model, OS, and specific app.
 

amey01

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
5,127
Reaction score
75
Location
Queensland, Australia
That was way too easy. How about a small glass of water and we look for ripples in the water?
That's precisely what I said! .....as above, "I reckon you could balance a coin on any speaker".

I think it stems from a marketing trick ML used back in the day.......but agree; proves nothing.
 

amey01

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
5,127
Reaction score
75
Location
Queensland, Australia
Another option might be a smartphone Vibration Measuring App. However, I don't know how accurate they are, and results might vary depending on phone model, OS, and specific app.
Again, I think any competently designed speaker would have nuances far below the tolerance of the phone sensor.

Ultimately, I think (that's think, not know) that the benefits of a balanced subwoofer design extend beyond simply reducing vibrations, so I wouldn't be too keen to prove vibration as a benefit. There are many other benefits.. You've got a damn good subwoofer!
 
Last edited:

Robert D

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
757
Reaction score
150
Does anyone know why Martin Logan moved away from having 3 woofers?
 

spkrdctr

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 23, 2017
Messages
338
Reaction score
167
Location
Clearwater Florida USA
Yes, once these companies get sold, the new owner "streamlines" things. Also, the quantity of sales really effects the product line decisions. Selling just a few very expensive products is "usually" not the way to go for a big company. As an example, I think the reason SVS offers so much bang for the buck is they are the best at watching manufacturing costs and designing stuff that flat out works. A great engineering team makes a very big difference too. SVS can afford to do it all. Not many can.
 

Robert D

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
757
Reaction score
150
I've heard.....cost.

And when they merged with Paradigm, Paradigm already had a 2-woofer design. So what they have today are essentially Paradigm subs.
Makes me wonder. Do the new dual woofer subs sound as good as my 3 woofer Depth I? Usually you assume newer models have evolved from the old and have gotten better, learning from past design flaws.

As an example,, my depth I seems to have a problem with the amp. Knowledgeable folks have told me that generation of subs does have amp issues. Do the new sun's have similar issues?

Part of me wonders if two 10 inch woofers can produce the same volume and quality as three 8 inch woofers like in mine. Does the total combined square inch measurement of the woofers have a large impact? More air moved.
 

amey01

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
5,127
Reaction score
75
Location
Queensland, Australia
Makes me wonder. Do the new dual woofer subs sound as good as my 3 woofer Depth I? Usually you assume newer models have evolved from the old and have gotten better, learning from past design flaws.

As an example,, my depth I seems to have a problem with the amp. Knowledgeable folks have told me that generation of subs does have amp issues. Do the new sun's have similar issues?

Part of me wonders if two 10 inch woofers can produce the same volume and quality as three 8 inch woofers like in mine. Does the total combined square inch measurement of the woofers have a large impact? More air moved.
Listen and see!

Like you have hinted at - there are many many factors that affect performance of audio components. Subwoofers being but one type of component, you listed many factors, such as effective cone area (ECA), amplifier design, amplifier type, enclosure design, porting or not, etc.

No component is perfect - they are all what the manufacturer sees as the best set of compromises. ie. What gives us the best performance for the lowest cost?

For you, some manufacturers succeed better than others. These are the components you buy, but of course may not be what others buy.

So to answer your question more explicitly - maybe the 3-woofer design was better, but also maybe ML have more than made up for it with other design aspects. As I said above - reaching a workable set of compromises.

If the 3-woofer design was better but expensive, maybe ML determined that that money was better spent on.....say....... quality of voice coils (to pick but one example out of the air).
 
Last edited:

spkrdctr

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 23, 2017
Messages
338
Reaction score
167
Location
Clearwater Florida USA
Listen and see!

No component is perfect - they are all what the manufacturer sees as the best set of compromises. ie. What gives us the best performance for the lowest cost?

. As I said above - reaching a workable set of compromises.

I agree. Those are words of wisdom. Everything is a set of compromises. But in audio, you get to pick which compromises you make. So, there are thousands (millions?) of combinations of equipment. Some like loads of bass others don't. Some like screechy speakers, many don't. Decisions, decisions!
 
Top