Avoiding re-amplification

[liffy99]

A while back I had a pair of Prodigies driven by a pair of big monoblocks and, latterly, Lyngdorf amplification With inbuilt active crossover and room correction provision. No issues there given the Prodigies were passive speakers, even though I could not bypass their analogue crossovers.

currently I am running layer Lyngdorf amps with the main integrated feeding a pair of Quad 2905s and a second amp powering Lyngdorf passive corner woofers. As before I use the Lyngdorfs very good room correction software and active crossover to direct sub 120Hz signals to the corner woofers and leave the Quads to deal with frequencies above that.

However, as with the Prodigys, the Quads are rather imposing in our lounge and pressure is mounting to downsize. So my head is turning back to hybrid MLs (I have run Audiostatic and Final ‘stats) before but with less success in pairing them with bass units which they both very much needed).

So, thinking of Summits, Summit X, Spire or Montis. But these all have onboard amps for the bass yet seem to need high level inputs from a power amp. So, having already taken a fully digital audio stream from source to the speaker outputs of the Lyngdorf, it will then be ‘undone’ and re-amplified by the ML loudspeaker. Have I understood correctly ? Surely the MLs must have a line level input for their bass sections ?

Alternatively, is there a way to simply bypass the crossover networks of the MLs and continue to let the Lyngdorfs sort out via their external, active, digital crossover capabilities ( allows for crossover frequency, filter type, slope, polarity and various parametric and shelf design). Obviously I would still be outputting to the ML audio transformer for the ESL.

Given there are a number of amp systems out there now that allow this sort of manipulation ML might consider passive hybrids ( at least larger ones).

Anyone had similar thoughts ? Also anyone had the opportunity to compare big Quads with recent ML hybrids ?

thanks

 

[spkrdctr]

Interesting issue. As to the last part of your post, instead of going away from a crossover, all the manufacturers are going to adding fairly good DSP and active crossovers so the customer can fine tune the speakers. That is where the industry is headed in the future. But that does not answer you main question. I guess if you can get to your ML crossover you could bypass it with wiring and that would defeat the crossover completely. Also, if you ever wanted to sell the speakers you could go back in and remove your wire and re-hook up the crossover. That would seem to be pretty easy.

Regarding the signal question. The answer is no. The signal at you speaker outputs is an amplified analog signal. It will go to your ML speakers and be amplified with their panel technology, it is not digitalized again. Now that is the panel. The signal going to your woofers will go through an analog crossover after having been "fixed" by your Lyngdorf. So that will change the signal from what was output by the Lyndorf. If the speaker offers DSP capabilities (which is coming soon across the board in audio) then it would digitize the signal all over again and redo it according to what you tell it too.

 

[JonFo]

So, thinking of Summits, Summit X, Spire or Montis. But these all have onboard amps for the bass yet seem to need high level inputs from a power amp

Because the Spire only has a single woofer, and its bass section is easy to bypass (wire inputs directly to the driver). Making it THE model you want to look for in your application.
https://martinlogan.com/en/product/spire
You could even bypass the High-Pass XO for the panel and do all XO in the Lyngdorf.

Surely the MLs must have a line level input for their bass sections ?

They did, the Monolith III had full external XO's, a passive box for the IIIp (one per speaker), or, an active XO (a re-branded Krell active analog XO). IIRC, other than a weird option on the Monolith II, that was the only model with completely externalized XOs, or even the option to bypass XO's.
My Monoliths run off of a DBX DriveRack 4800 Speaker Processor doing the XO duties.

But as I showed doing my center channel project, bypassing the XO in most passive, un-powered units is easy.

As noted above, similar for the Spire.

Much harder to do for multi-element woofer systems, so I'd avoid those if hacking.

Alternatively, is there a way to simply bypass the crossover networks of the MLs and continue to let the Lyngdorfs sort out via their external, active, digital crossover capabilities ( allows for crossover frequency, filter type, slope, polarity and various parametric and shelf design). Obviously I would still be outputting to the ML audio transformer for the ESL.

Yes, as noted above, check out my SL3XC CC build.

For a Power-DAC like the Lyngdorf, I'd use the 3 Ohm load option to keep it from oscilating, as I don't think they designed it to deal with a capacitive load.

Anyone had similar thoughts ?

Day in and day-out

You will love what I did 'designing' this 'future' ML product: The Monoray Line

From the Brochure about the amps:

" Electrostatic panels present unique amplification challenges which are addressed with the innovative closed-loop PowerDAC architecture of our Dynamic Direct Panel Drive (DDPD) amplification stage. Eliminating the last passive element, the step-up transformer, between amp and panel, and fully integrating the panels dynamic feedback, the Direct Digital Feedback Amplifier (DDFA)-based topology drives high-voltage power MOSFET devices directly wired to the stators. Combining high efficiency with extremely high-quality performance, DDPD is able to drive the panel to its full rated output across the specified spectrum "

 

[JonFo]

As to the last part of your post, instead of going away from a crossover, all the manufacturers are going to adding fairly good DSP and active crossovers so the customer can fine tune the speakers.

Agreed, we are seeing more and more active speakers, as the designer can better tune the results if they can control the whole sequence from low-level input to acoustic output. And it also gives us users tuning options.

But the downside is that in high-end audio, the snobbery against active designs is still in full force. In a session with the founder of Muradio, he indicated they originally intended the design to be a fully active system, but that dealer and customer feedback forced them into designing a fully passive system instead. They said people wanted to pick their amps (or already had big investments in amps).

My take is this like rolling up to the Ferrari dealer and telling them I want a 488, minus the motor, as I really like the Chevy small-block V8 I already have.

This is why the Monoray design is a fully vertically integrated speaker system.

 

[JonFo]

Surely the MLs must have a line level input for their bass sections ?

In re-reading the above, I think you are inquiring about sending a full-spectrum line-level input to the low-end amp of a hybrid speaker, right?
Basically, Y the output of the preamp, one leg goes to the amp powering the panels, the other leg goes to the low-level input of the bass-amp on the hybrid speaker.

The answer is no, there are no models with that.

You *might* be able to hack that on the amp board bypassing the high-z to low-z input adapter and feeding the low-z output into the rest of the circuit, but not sure how you'd balance gains unless there is a trim-pot there.

 

[liffy99]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful replies. In summary, the best way to go may well be to acquire some Spires, bypass the bass section and hook the slave Lyngdorf amp to the cone itself. The main amp take to the panel section, but do not try to bypass the transformer !
in doing so I would use the Lyngdorfs active crossover to divide the outputs between high and low frequency outputs - around 300Hz. However, do I just search for the best sounding setup by ear for stuff like crossover type ( LW, Butterworth etc), slope, polarity, any shelving or parametric equalisation ? Given my skill with a soldering is akin to my teaching a zebra to play the violin, what could possibly go wrong ???
Saw a lovely looking pair of modded Spires but, sadly, much of the work involved there was about rebuilding external, analogue, passive crossovers.

 

[JonFo]

use the Lyngdorfs active crossover to divide the outputs between high and low frequency outputs - around 300Hz. However, do I just search for the best sounding setup by ear for stuff like crossover type ( LW, Butterworth etc), slope, polarity, any shelving or parametric equalisation ?

Here's what I'd start with based on my experience:

Both low-pass and high pass set to 340Hz, using a Linwitz-Riley 24dB/octave XO. Polarity you will need to test using REW and a Mic (tools you should have regardless, much like a carpenter always has his tape measure). Test using low-passed signals (<500Hz) to ensure you correctly align to the polarity of the panel at the XO region.
As for PEQ, it is a season to taste thing, but start with science. Run a full spectrum REW measurement from the MLP, then bring down the worst peaks in the <500Hz range. Measure again, rinse and repeat. Disable Room correction before taking these measurements. All you are trying to do is to get within a 5 to 10dB window, the DRC will 'fix' the rest.

 

[agladstone]

Curious if it’s possible to upgrade the internal ICE digital amps inside the Spires powering the woofers? Seems like there are newer more powerful and better ICE amp modules available now vs. when the Spires were manufactured/ designed?
Would I also need to address / upgrade power supply board or could I just swap out the ICE modules if I were to just bump up the power 50-100 watts ?

 

[JonFo]

Curious if it’s possible to upgrade the internal ICE digital amps inside the Spires powering the woofers?

It is probably not worth the effort. The original amp is likely sufficient to push the woofer well enough to meet specs.

A better path is to relieve the woofers (and amps) load by using two or more subs using appropriate delays and EQ to integrate everything.
The big win here is that the woofer only needing to cover the 60 or 70Hz up to 320Hz range will be much cleaner (lower distortion) than if also called on to do low bass. Also, individual subs can be better placed to smooth out the inevitable room modes.

 

[Stefan_DR3]

So, thinking of Summits, Summit X, Spire or Montis. But these all have onboard amps for the bass yet seem to need high level inputs from a power amp.

Have you considered the former top passive hybrid model, Theos?

 

[barjohn]

What ever happened to the Monoray? It doesn't even show on ML's historical listing sight.

 

[JonFo]

What ever happened to the Monoray? It doesn't even show on ML's historical listing sight.

Not sure if this is a serious request, but if it is, I feel honored

That was my best (to date) April Fools post. I like designing and specifying my idea of an awesome product.
Since I have access to my wife's InDesign and Illustrator skills, we can pull off stuff like the Monoray brochure. Like it says at the end 'It Sounds True', which is a truth-telling variation on MLs 'Truth in Sound'

Several years later, the concept ages well. I'd buy that stuff in a heartbeat. And it would be the last speaker purchase I make.

 

[barjohn]

I certainly missed that it was an April fools joke but I thought it was an awesome idea which is why I wondered what happened to it.

 

[Robert D]

This is a bit similar I suppose.

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/statement-40xw
Does anyone here actually have these speakers? I'd love to hear them. At $22,500 each speaker I'm betting they aren't in too many homes.

 

[BigGuy]

Was not even aware that the 40XW existed but I DID hear the Statement E2 driven by 8 stacked Threshold amps at a NYC audio show MANY years ago. One demo track was a thunderstorm and thunderclap that had been recorded on a Nagra tape machine, IIRC. Shook the whole hotel! Mind blowing...literally.
https://www.martinlogan.com/en/the-history-of-martinlogan

 

[Robert D]

Was not even aware that the 40XW existed but I DID hear the Statement E2 driven by 8 stacked Threshold amps at a NYC audio show MANY years ago. One demo track was a thunderstorm and thunderclap that had been recorded on a Nagra tape machine, IIRC. Shook the whole hotel! Mind blowing...literally.
https://www.martinlogan.com/en/the-history-of-martinlogan

Wow! I didn't know about those. 900 lb speakers! I guess that's 900 lb each?

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/statementevolution2

 

[BigGuy]

Wow! I didn't know about those. 900 lb speakers! I guess that's 900 lb each?

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/statementevolution2

Looks like it...
THE REALIZATION-STATEMENT EVOLUTION 2. Our mission began 20 ... The heart of this technology, Martin Logan's ... Total system weight 1,800 lbs. MARTIN ...
https://www.martinlogan.com › uploads › brochures
PDF

Don't know of too many houses with a listening space accessible by a forklift!

Just in case anyone is thinking about buying a used pair...
https://www.martinlogan.com/uploads/documents/manuals/manual_statement_e2.pdf

 

[c0mp]

This is a bit similar I suppose.

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/statement-40xw
Does anyone here actually have these speakers? I'd love to hear them. At $22,500 each speaker I'm betting they aren't in too many homes.

Haven't seen any other installs anywhere, but ask me again in a week . I'm doing 3 40xws LCRs, 6 Edge speakers (4 sides, 2 rears), and 6 Sistenes for Atmos, plus 2 JL audio in-wall 13" subs and 2 Dynamo 1600Xs.

Edit to add more info: Upgrading from Renaissance 15a + Illusion center to the 40xws, mostly want to maximize screen size and hoping for a similar sound from in-walls. I also didn't have much space to build a false wall plus a crazy speaker set up. I listened to the 40xw's in a Magnolia in Texas a couple of months ago (apparently the only demo set up at the time) and though the room acoustics weren't great, they really excelled in a lot of ways, mostly due to the line source array config for sure. The sweet spot was huge, and there was quite a bit of verticality that I wasn't used to. As much as I loved the illusion I think a 40xw as a center channel behind the screen will be a huge step up. The bass wasn't as good in comparison to the 15A's obviously, but that shouldn't be a problem with a home theater set up with decent subs/bass management.

 

[JonFo]

I'm doing 3 40xws LCRs, 6 Edge speakers (4 sides, 2 rears), and 6 Sistenes for Atmos, plus 2 JL audio in-wall 13" subs and 2 Dynamo 1600Xs.

Wow!, nice, very nice!

Hopefully, you will be driving it with a Trinnov processor, it would do that gear justice, especially with four sides and 6 overheads.

As much as I loved the illusion I think a 40xw as a center channel behind the screen will be a huge step up. The bass wasn't as good in comparison to the 15A's obviously, but that shouldn't be a problem with a home theater set up with decent subs/bass management.

You will be blown away with the 40xw as a center, it is the ideal config for a rig like yours.

With the subs you list, you will have plenty of bass and mid-bass. Just make sure the calibrator is good, and that you have the room acoustic treatment sorted.

Please go ahead and start a new thread for your HT build-out so we can chime in on that. This one looks to be a fascinating one.

 

[Robert D]

I've never heard an in wall sub. How do those do with minimizing wall vibrations? To me, that would be a great challenge.

I guess the area behind the wall would need to have empty space to hold the volume of the sub, or is the box more or less vertical up the wall and totally contained within the wall? I'd think it would stick out the back of the wall into the other room.