Quantcast

Auditioned a pair of Summits today...

MartinLogan Owners (MLO)

Help Support MartinLogan Owners (MLO):

mapmustang

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
64
Reaction score
0
Location
Houston
Well, my system got hit by lightning Saturday morning, and even though I had power conditioners on everything, my Sunfire amp and Velodyne sub got hit. Called Belkin and they said to send them to service to get estimates so I thought it would be a good time to audition some new equipment. I called around and there is only one Tweeter in Houston that has the Summits on display, so I went there to hopefully partake in some audio nirvana.

I got there and told the guy I'd like to listen to the Summits and the Krell amps they got to replace the B&K. First they couldn't get the system to work and it took them a few minutes to figure out what was wrong. After they cleared that up, the demo the sales guy brought in was scratched, but luckily I had brought some music of my own.

The system they had set up was the Summits in black with the aluminum trim (which was awesome looking), the Krell KAV280p preamp ($3500), the Krell KAV2250 amp ($4500), and the Krell SACD Standard($4000). Compared to my Ascent i's, B&K, and Sunfire, a much pricier system. Initially I noticed the transparency of the sound was much better than what I have. After a few seconds though I could tell that the soundstage was very poor, there was almost zero bass response, and effects seemed exaggurated to the point that it cluttered the music.

Based on people's stories of Summits on these forums and also of their Krell equipment, I'm guessing they had that system set up as poorly as possible. I sat about a foot left of center and only heard the left channel. When I sat dead center it cleared up somewhat but still lacked focus. One thing I noticed was that the panels seemed to be leaning back a good bit, like the rear feet were set too low. I looked at the Vantages and they seemed to have the panels more upright. I'm guessing the poor imaging could be due to them toeing the speakers too wide as they sat at least 10-12 feet apart and were barely toed in.

I hope the speakers are more forgiving than the tiny sweet spot I heard today, as I should be getting accomodation at work on Logans in the next few months and hoped to replace my Ascents with Summits. I guess it goes to show you can have a bunch of expensive gear and still have it sound bad if not set up properly. And my listening area at home is very far from ideal, so I don't have a warped reference point. If you guys have any words of wisdom regarding setup or have had any similar audition experiences, they would be appreciated. Since I have no Logans for the next few days, thought I'd post a complaint.
 

Reverb

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2005
Messages
1,543
Reaction score
0
Location
Palm Springs, CA
Lightning killed your system? That sucks, I am sorry to hear that.

As for the Summits, there is no way they had them setup correctly.

I auditioned the summits at a Show Case Audio Video store in Arizona; Show Case is a subsidiary of Tweeter. The system I heard was all Krell, and it sound fantastic, very large soundstage, wonderful bass that reminded me of the descents bass. Part way threw the audition I got out of my chair to test the sweet spot to see if two or three people sitting on a sofa could be in the sweet spot. My conclusion was an amazing YES!

The summits may be about the size of my ascents but there sound is far superior, after hearing them properly setup I dream of one day owning a pair.

Take Care,
 

Joey_V

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
4,379
Reaction score
0
Location
Dallas, TX
Map,

Having the Summits and having heard the Summits several times at several stores for demos... I can honestly say, these are some picky speakers - with regards to positioning.

I had trouble with the positioning (toe in degree), but now that I've got it pretty much where I want it, there is no doubt that these are truly REFERENCE speakers. The Summits are far better than the Ascents, as Joe ascertained above, provided they are set up right.

Remember that you took the time and care to setup YOUR Ascents and if you gave the Summits that same care, the Summits will sound super once set up to YOUR specifications and room. No doubt in my mind.

Joey
 

Joey_V

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
4,379
Reaction score
0
Location
Dallas, TX
mapmustang said:
I'm guessing the poor imaging could be due to them toeing the speakers too wide as they sat at least 10-12 feet apart and were barely toed in.
That could be the main reason as to why the imaging and focus was lackluster. I was toying with that sort of a placement (no toe in) and I didnt like it AT ALL.... if that was the only choice I could have with my Summits (in my room), I would much rather sell them.

I have mine toed in about 2/3 of the way through and separated about 8 feet (I would separate them more if I had the space though).

There's something surreal about having a voice so real, so palpable, yet so transparent that it gives me goosebumps on more than one occassion per listening session. This should tell you the true power of the Summits. They are reference.

And yup... all this on a lowly amp.

Joey
 

Reverb

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2005
Messages
1,543
Reaction score
0
Location
Palm Springs, CA
mapmustang said:
I'm guessing the poor imaging could be due to them toeing the speakers too wide as they sat at least 10-12 feet apart and were barely toed in.
My Dealer had them about 9-10 feet apart, 3 feet from the back wall, and about 2/3 toe in. The listening chair was about 10 feet back from the Summits.

And YES! Joey V is right, Both the summit and vantage are very placement sensitive. Every Martin Logan speaker that I have played with has been placement sensitive, but none more then ML’s new XStat speakers. Moving them an inch in any direction can make or brake the speaker.
 

Joey_V

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
4,379
Reaction score
0
Location
Dallas, TX
Zip3kx07 said:
My Dealer had them about 9-10 feet apart, 3 feet from the back wall, and about 2/3 toe in. The listening chair was about 10 feet back from the Summits.

And YES! Joey V is right, Both the summit and vantage are very placement sensitive. Every Martin Logan speaker that I have played with has been placement sensitive, but none more then ML’s new XStat speakers. Moving them an inch in any direction can make or brake the speaker.
I love the 2/3 toe in.... I wonder how much toe in I'll need when I move in to my new dorm next year.
 

garmtz

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2005
Messages
250
Reaction score
0
Lack of focus and a small sweet spot always is a sign of bad setup with ML speakers. Get the setup right and they have a pretty homogenic soundfield off-axis.
 

Craig

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2005
Messages
1,463
Reaction score
1
Location
U.S.
After a few seconds though I could tell that the soundstage was very poor, there was almost zero bass response, and effects seemed exaggurated to the point that it cluttered the music.
Poor soundstage and almost zero bass response with Krell gear driving Summits? There was something very wrong with this system. Even if the gear isn't broken in it should still sound great from the start and not that bad even with basic speaker placement. What were the settings on the bass modules? I would give the demo another try and also try a variety of settings on the bass module including 0 and 0,. What did the salesman think of the sound?
 

stesom

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2006
Messages
146
Reaction score
0
Location
Eden Prarie, MN
Summits are much better than you heard

The Summits are great. Almost sounds like they wired them out of Phase. There is no way the base would ever be lacking. Also check to see how the 25hz and 50hz controls are set. If they do not know what they are doing this will surely screw things up. I liked the Summits so much I bought them and they are very, very good........Steve
 

Gordon Gray

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
3,962
Reaction score
5
Location
Alto, NM
Tweeters sucks

Had my first experience with this chain store when I was back east this weekend. I live in Wyoming. The sales person I met with was a joke. Listened to the Vantage they had set up. The set up was a joke. These guys appear to have the ability of a used car salesman. I have the Summits. They are incredible. DO NOT base your decision on that experience. Based on this single experience, they have their head up their you know what.

Gordon Gray
 

DTB300

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2005
Messages
2,146
Reaction score
0
Location
Fallout 3 Land
mapmustang said:
I guess it goes to show you can have a bunch of expensive gear and still have it sound bad if not set up properly.
A very wise statement and an excellent point for all to take notice of.

I cannot tell you how many Mega $$$ systems I have heard that sounded average at best. Just buying the big $$$ components and slapping them all together does not equate to good sound.

Dan
 

twich54

Forum Administrator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 25, 2005
Messages
6,589
Reaction score
22
Location
SE Pa
I've said it before and I'll say it again......TWEETER SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On average the sales people there have the audio IQ of a chipmunk !!
 

Gordon Gray

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
3,962
Reaction score
5
Location
Alto, NM
Right on David!

twich54 said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again......TWEETER SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On average the sales people there have the audio IQ of a chipmunk !!
Hey David,

You stold my line. Thanks for the confirmation on my first and LAST experience with this incompetent retailer.

Gordon Gray
 

Reverb

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2005
Messages
1,543
Reaction score
0
Location
Palm Springs, CA
twich54 said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again......TWEETER SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On average the sales people there have the audio IQ of a chipmunk !!
Thats for sure. The only reson I still deal with my local Tweeter is because they are the only ML dealer in 200 miles. Well there is Magnolia, but I dont count them because the can only get the smaller Logans.
 

mapmustang

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
64
Reaction score
0
Location
Houston
twich54 said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again......TWEETER SUCKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On average the sales people there have the audio IQ of a chipmunk !!
This is sad because I used to work for Tweeter and they really had a tremendous training program. The sales guy apparently thought they sounded fine. I love my Ascents, but listening to these I was hoping for the second coming of Jesus in stereo. Its pretty bad when you want to get up and adjust someones $25000 setup because it sounds so poor. I think I was lucky enough to get the most junior member of their sales staff to boot, since none of the other sales guys want to help a 24 year old guy in shorts and a t-shirt.
 

DTB300

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2005
Messages
2,146
Reaction score
0
Location
Fallout 3 Land
mapmustang said:
I think I was lucky enough to get the most junior member of their sales staff to boot, since none of the other sales guys want to help a 24 year old guy in shorts and a t-shirt.
Go back all dressed up and see if you get better treatment. :D :eek:

Then check placement and bass adjustments just as the others here have suggested. I have always had to adjust the bass settings on the new ML speakers to suit my tastes - usually a lowered setting needs to be made.

Dan
 

Craig

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2005
Messages
1,463
Reaction score
1
Location
U.S.
I think I was lucky enough to get the most junior member of their sales staff to boot, since none of the other sales guys want to help a 24 year old guy in shorts and a t-shirt.
Go buy the $10,000 speakers from the new kid and then watch the other salesmen's faces as you cart them out the door. Take a picture for us.
 

Daryl Zero

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2005
Messages
50
Reaction score
0
Location
Arizona
Craig said:
Go buy the $10,000 speakers from the new kid and then watch the other salesmen's faces as you cart them out the door. Take a picture for us.
Hmm. Spending $10K just to see the look on someone's face. :eek:
 

Craig

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2005
Messages
1,463
Reaction score
1
Location
U.S.
Hmm. Spending $10K just to see the look on someone's face.
No...it's $10k for the Summits, the look on the salesmen's faces who lost the commission is priceless.
 

Statman

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
322
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern CA
Try listening to them again but try this!

What prevented you from getting up and repositioning the speakers and changing the settings on the bass control yourself? I've had to do it before, I even had a tape measure with me to try and set them up similar as to what I have at home. I'm begining to realize that some salespeople have no clue on how to set up Martin Logans. If they don't allow you to set them up the way you want then go somewhere else. Just my 2 cents
 
Top