Apple Music Lossless Hi-Res Audio Coming Soon

[Robert D]

For gaming there are actually good reasons for wanting additional bandwidth past the highest currently available.

There are high end VR headsets that are running with more than 4K resolution per eye at up to 90 fps. A few manufacturers have already resorted to using compression/decompression to get what they need across HDMI and DisplayPorts. One manufacturer had to use two DP 1.4 connections to get the bandwidth they needed.

The DP 2.0 spec is s 77.37Gbps data rate, not raw) and was published in 2019. It isn't currently supported by the latest 30 series NVidia GPU's. There are Displayport 2.0 8K gaming monitors being released this year. They will be capable of higher frame rates for gaming but we will be waiting for the 40 series NVidia GPU's likely to be released in the Fall of 2022 to reach their full potential.

I'm not worried about the 8K TV's as I consider that resolution completely wasted, however I am looking forward to new headsets with well over 8K total resolution at higher frame rates for VR headsets. With the lenses that close to your eyes, there is a lot more room for resolving detail. The recent Varjo has a center section of both lenses that is supposed to be a retina display surrounded by a more typical 4K screen. It's pushing an enormous amount of information.

I own the original HTC Vive and it does have the screen door effect. I hear the newer higher resolution headsets don't suffer so badly from that. Have you seen the newer Valve or the new Vive 2 Pro?

I'd love to build a new gaming pc but finding a non scalped 3080 ti or 3090 card is impossible. The 3090 is still selling for over $3500 each on Amazon! I'm still using a gtx1080 on my non vr rig. My vr pc has a gtx 1080ti. I was planning on building one this spring. I noticed prices are high on other components too. Bad time to buy anything right now.

Sorry if I got off topic.

 

[Stefan_DR3]

How does it compare on paper to Sonos? I'm not knowledgeable. Right now I use Sonos for music and Apple tv for movies.

Sonos doesn’t support Hi-Res but it has always been known for streaming CD quality (actually 16/48 max) very well.

The new S2 devices take this to 24/48 with the caveat that the Sonos Port introduces some sound quality compromises.

https://www.techhive.com/article/3546333/sonos-port-review.html

 

[Robert D]

Sonos doesn’t support Hi-Res but it has always been known for streaming CD quality (actually 16/48 max) very well.

The new S2 devices take this to 24/48 with the caveat that the Sonos Port introduces some sound quality compromises.

https://www.techhive.com/article/3546333/sonos-port-review.html

Dang. Glad I havent bought the new device. I will continue to use my old.

" After conducting a comprehensive series of A/B listening tests using the digital outputs on the Port and and on the first-gen Connect (and the DAC on a Yamaha Aventage RX-A3060 receiver, connected in turn to a pair of beloved Bowers & Wilkins Nautilus 803 loudspeakers), I’ve concluded that the Port sounds inferior to the Connect it replaces. Compared to the Connect, the Port’s sound field seems flattened and compressed. "

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I own the original HTC Vive and it does have the screen door effect. I hear the newer higher resolution headsets don't suffer so badly from that. Have you seen the newer Valve or the new Vive 2 Pro?

I'd love to build a new gaming pc but finding a non scalped 3080 ti or 3090 card is impossible. The 3090 is still selling for over $3500 each on Amazon! I'm still using a gtx1080 on my non vr rig. My vr pc has a gtx 1080ti. I was planning on building one this spring. I noticed prices are high on other components too. Bad time to buy anything right now.

Sorry if I got off topic.

My Rift had very noticeable SDE like your Vive.

My Valve Index is much better and good enough that I don't think about SDE anymore. However I wouldn't mind more resolution and a bit more FOV. The Index has better FOV than the Vive, better audio, is more comfortable, has a higher refresh rate, and some other improvements. Valve isn't likely to replace the Index until Spring 2022 by most estimates.

I'm running a 2080Ti on an i9-9900K system right now which is a great match for the Index. I can run racing sims at 90-120 fps depending on the title. For other titles I can generally run 120. Beat Saber, In Death, many others with all the visuals turned all the way up.

A 1080Ti is enough to push the Index, but it does have 50% more resolution than the Vive so you may have to tweak your settings to make it run pretty well.

 

[Robert D]

My Rift had very noticeable SDE like your Vive.

My Valve Index is much better and good enough that I don't think about SDE anymore. However I wouldn't mind more resolution and a bit more FOV. The Index has better FOV than the Vive, better audio, is more comfortable, has a higher refresh rate, and some other improvements. Valve isn't likely to replace the Index until Spring 2022 by most estimates.

I'm running a 2080Ti on an i9-9900K system right now which is a great match for the Index. I can run racing sims at 90-120 fps depending on the title. For other titles I can generally run 120. Beat Saber, In Death, many others with all the visuals turned all the way up.

A 1080Ti is enough to push the Index, but it does have 50% more resolution than the Vive so you may have to tweak your settings to make it run pretty well.

I'm leaning toward getting the new Vive Pro 2, and go wireless.

https://www.vive.com/us/product/vive-pro2/overview/
I need to build some new rigs, but you can't find nvidia cards now. I'm going to just have to wait until I can snag a 3080 ti or a 3090.

Good to hear the SDE is pretty much gone now. I'm not sure how the Valve Index and the Vive Pro 2 compare in resolution, but its as good or better.

Right now I just want a video card for my main gaming pc build. All of the other parts seem priced high now too. To build what I want is going to be over $5000. It crazy now. Kinda like trying to build a new home.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

The best review I saw on the Vive Pro 2 said that a 3090 still occasionally stuttered in Half Life Alyx which is a very well optimized game. The Vive Pro 2 also has it's own control software outside of Steam.

I know 4 people who pre-ordered one, got it and returned it. I don't know anyone who kept it. One guy still said his experience was better in the Index. Another is using an HP Reverb G2. The Vive Pro 2 still doesn't have audio as good as the Index, or comfort and you may need to get 3rd party face gaskets for it to feel decent on your face.

Lately I feel like HTC has been dropping the ball. Also the wireless connection to it will drop your resolution all the way down to the level of the Vive Pro.

I'm thinking that the middle-end of 2022 may be when I look at upgrading again. I'm thinking I'll need a 40 series GPU to drive the resolution I want and I'm expecting a Valve Index successor to be released by then.

 

[Robert D]

The best review I saw on the Vive Pro 2 said that a 3090 still occasionally stuttered in Half Life Alyx which is a very well optimized game. The Vive Pro 2 also has it's own control software outside of Steam.

I know 4 people who pre-ordered one, got it and returned it. I don't know anyone who kept it. One guy still said his experience was better in the Index. Another is using an HP Reverb G2. The Vive Pro 2 still doesn't have audio as good as the Index, or comfort and you may need to get 3rd party face gaskets for it to feel decent on your face.

Lately I feel like HTC has been dropping the ball. Also the wireless connection to it will drop your resolution all the way down to the level of the Vive Pro.

I'm thinking that the middle-end of 2022 may be when I look at upgrading again. I'm thinking I'll need a 40 series GPU to drive the resolution I want and I'm expecting a Valve Index successor to be released by then.

I sure hope the chip shortage is over soon so I can build a new pc. I will probably wait until Christmas 2022 to buy another vr too. Maybe the 4000 series will be out by then or earlier. I've not heard any talk about them. Maybe if it comes out early enough I can skip the 3000 and go right to 4000.

Sounds like the Index works better. Can you do it wireless and still get the resolution? My aim is to not get a new VR device until I can go wireless with full res. I wasn't aware that resolution has to drop in order to go wireless.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

There are no wireless adapters for the Index and given that Displayport 2.0 handles 80Gbps and the next generation 4-5K per eye headsets will use a good chunk of that, it is even less hopeful that anything will be available for the next gen headsets.

The Vive wireless option uses lossy compression just to handle the resolution of the Vive Pro. Reviews said it worked pretty well, but they could see some artifacts from it at times. The resolution of the Vive Pro 2 is well beyond any wireless solution currently available.

You might consider the Quest 2 for just $299.99. It's a complete stand alone device that does not even require a PC. You can take it anywhere and once it maps the room you are in, you can play. Oculus is also publishing a number of games for it that are not available on Steam. In fact they are buying up VR software development houses regularly at the moment. You can also use a long USB 3.0 cable to tether a Quest 2 to your PC using Oculus Link to run games on your PC.

The Quest 2 is 1832×1920 per eye
Your Vive is 1080×1200 per eye
The Vive Pro and Index are 1440 x 1600 per eye

So the Quest 2 beats all of those in terms of resolution.

The downside to Oculus is that you need to connect to your Facebook account so they can track you. On top of that they have already started looking at how they will inject advertising into the VR environment. They are selling this headset in vast numbers, but some are speculating that they are selling them at a loss or close to it with the expectation of recovering this investment by generating tracking information they can sell and by advertising impressions.

So on the one hand you can play all native Quest games without even needing a PC and that might be good enough for you and then you can tether it to your PC for steam games if you want to.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Just saw that Valve has filed a patent for a wireless headset with onboard processing. So maybe something is coming.

This mentions the Valve patents and the fact the Oculus Quest is already started to support in game ads.

 

[Robert D]

For now I'm just going to continue using my old Vive. I don't play VR that much now anyhow. I have 2 gaming pc, one for regular gaming and another in a big empty room in the basement for room scale VR. I've mostly been playing non vr games. I figure in a few more years the tech will be greater and then I'll break down and get something new.

Right now I can't even find a 3000 series video card. This shortage can't go on forever. Once I build a couple of more current pcs I will take another look at newer vr headsets. I'd prefer to use the pc for it, but would love to be untethered.

 

[Robert D]

Just saw that Valve has filed a patent for a wireless headset with onboard processing. So maybe something is coming.

This mentions the Valve patents and the fact the Oculus Quest is already started to support in game ads.

Thanks for telling me about the ads. I've never looked at Oculus before, but I will make sure that I don't even consider it.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

For now I'm just going to continue using my old Vive. I don't play VR that much now anyhow. I have 2 gaming pc, one for regular gaming and another in a big empty room in the basement for room scale VR. I've mostly been playing non vr games. I figure in a few more years the tech will be greater and then I'll break down and get something new.

I play in VR or not at all. So this probably matters more to me, but I don't expect to do anything until 2022 at this point and likely it will be the end of 2022.

I'm glad I got my Index and 2080Ti when I did. I'm pretty content. I've been focusing on my rig only for about the last year and a half. Most of that is durable and doesn't depreciate fast.

That said, I'm happy with my Raspberry Pi and Volumio for streaming music at the moment and since I'm not an Apple customer of any kind, I should probably leave this thread. I have an ancient iPod still connected in my car, but it won't be around much longer.

I will say that I "heard" that the next iWatch might have real time blood sugar monitoring and that sounds interesting. I'm not diabetic, but it appears that everyone has certain foods that will cause a spike in blood sugar and it varies wildly from person to person. The only reason that is important to a non-diabetic person is that your microbiome does not like spikes in blood sugar. We are learning with time that our our overall health is much more closely tied to microbiome health and whatever keeps your good bacteria happy, helps keep you healthy.

 

[Robert D]

I like the new apple tv. There is a problem with the Netflix app though. The sound drops out or gets garbled at random times watching shows with dolby atmos.

 

[JonFo]

There is a problem with the Netflix app though. The sound drops out or gets garbled at random times watching shows with dolby atmos.

Hum, that has never happened to me.

Two thoughts here:
1- Possible data stream starvation if using WiFi to connect. It's always better to use a wired connection for set-top/TV networking.

2- Handshaking with the processor is buggy (likely processors fault).
I have ATV's feeding three different processors and all are rock solid as far as audio stream consistency, and I try and play as much Atmos as possible, even more so these days with Apple Music Atmos content.

What processor is it?

 

[Robert D]

Hum, that has never happened to me.

Two thoughts here:
1- Possible data stream starvation if using WiFi to connect. It's always better to use a wired connection for set-top/TV networking.

2- Handshaking with the processor is buggy (likely processors fault).
I have ATV's feeding three different processors and all are rock solid as far as audio stream consistency, and I try and play as much Atmos as possible, even more so these days with Apple Music Atmos content.

What processor is it?

Well, the data comes in through ethernet and my rate is a bit over 500 mbps. Used an app on atv to measure it. It matches up with the rest of the house. I don't use wifi for any of my devices. I have lots of switches in the house and hardwire everything except for the kid's laptops. I've got whole house cat 5e run everywhere. Built the house 13 years ago. The house internet is supplied by fiber optic lines.

The atv is plugged directly into my Marantz receiver. It's the 11 channel atmos receiver they have and only a few years old.

The problem only happens with the Netflix App. I've watched plenty of Atmos on Apple tv service and HBO max with no issues.

I also watched plenty of atmos through Amazon Firestick before I bought the apple tv box. No issues there. The firecstick Netflix app could not play atmos, so never had an issue. One of the reasons I bought the atv was to get atmos in Netflix!

I spent several hours on the phone and chat with both Netflix and Apple. Netflix was through online chat. She reported that they had other complaints like mine, so I'm not the only one. She tried to blame Apple. Supposedly escalated it up the chain though.

Apple was on the phone and a much better experience. She also confirmed lots of folks having my issue. Since it only happens on the Netflux app, it's something wrong there.

Since it is random and sporadic, I think it might be a problem with Netflix not being able to supply enough bandwidth to individual users all of the time. It only happens on shows that are dolby vision and atmos. Both of those require a big stream. Only the audio drops out, the picture quality stays vision and looks just as great. Maybe they give priority to the picture first?

Sometimes I can watch Netflix for a hour and it won't happen, and other times it will happen 2 times in 30 minutes.

To get the problem to go away, all I have to do is pause or stop play and then play it again. I can also rewind then and play the part where the audio cut out and it doesn't happen again. So it's not a problem with their file.

 

[Robert D]

Oh, the lady at Apple agreed with me that it might be a problem with the new OS that just came out. My new apple tv box did a huge update less than 1 week after I bought it. The sound problem didn't happen before that, but I didn't watch a lot of atmos on Netflix before that so experience was limited on the old OS. I guess the new Apple tv shipped with the old OS? I got it on day 1 of release. I had pre-ordered it on the first day you could do so and got it on days.

So one hypothesis is that the Netflix App is having issues with the new operating system.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

FYI I run a Roku across WIFI and it can handle 4K from Netflix without any issues.

I currently have two Roku Ultra's that handle 4K and an older HD unit.

I currently run Netflix, Hulu, Paramount Plus, HBOMAX, Amazon Prime and YouTube from my Roku's. They also handle Spotify and use optical cable or HDMI.

That said my Raspberry PI sounds better even streaming Spotify coming across USB.

 

[Robert D]

FYI I run a Roku across WIFI and it can handle 4K from Netflix without any issues.

I currently have two Roku Ultra's that handle 4K and an older HD unit.

I currently run Netflix, Hulu, Paramount Plus, HBOMAX, Amazon Prime and YouTube from my Roku's. They also handle Spotify and use optical cable or HDMI.

That said my Raspberry PI sounds better even streaming Spotify coming across USB.

Yeah,I ran my Amazon Firestick off wireless because it doesn't even have an ethernet port. It was fine for 4k on Netflix, but didn't support atmos on that app. It did stream Dolby vision AND dolby atmos on HBOmax just fine wireless.

Does the Roku support Atmos on Netflix yet? I don't think it did last time I checked.

 

[JonFo]

Since it is random and sporadic, I think it might be a problem with Netflix not being able to supply enough bandwidth to individual users all of the time. It only happens on shows that are dolby vision and atmos. Both of those require a big stream. Only the audio drops out, the picture quality stays vision and looks just as great. Maybe they give priority to the picture first?

OK, then it could well be the local CDN node or the ISP peering paths to it that are overloaded. My local (ATL) Netflix node used to deliver up to a full gigabit (pre-pandemic) on the fast.com test (which is by Netflix and uses the Netflix infrastructure, including CDN's), but ever since last spring, it's struggled to regularly hit 600, and for several weeks never went above 300, it's back up to 600 to 700 range now.

That said, I must be lucky, as I've never, ever seen that issue. I watch about 4 to 6hrs/week of DV/Atmos content. More if binging one of their series.

As for priority, not sure which they prioritize. On video conferencing, the priority is audio, but for streaming movies, maybe they went with video. That'd be a weird choice.

The other possibility is that the link between the ATV and the processor is flaky. Are you using eARC (ATV -> TV -> AVR) ?
I run ATV -> AVR -> TV

The symptoms could point to a need for the processor to re-set up a Dolby MAT transport with the sender. MAT is the transport protocol used by Blu-ray players and set-tops to send bitstream formats to the processors. If something causes the stream to pause long enough, then the processor might request a handshake with the sender, causing the drop-out.

 

[Robert D]

OK, then it could well be the local CDN node or the ISP peering paths to it that are overloaded. My local (ATL) Netflix node used to deliver up to a full gigabit (pre-pandemic) on the fast.com test (which is by Netflix and uses the Netflix infrastructure, including CDN's), but ever since last spring, it's struggled to regularly hit 600, and for several weeks never went above 300, it's back up to 600 to 700 range now.

That said, I must be lucky, as I've never, ever seen that issue. I watch about 4 to 6hrs/week of DV/Atmos content. More if binging one of their series.

As for priority, not sure which they prioritize. On video conferencing, the priority is audio, but for streaming movies, maybe they went with video. That'd be a weird choice.

The other possibility is that the link between the ATV and the processor is flaky. Are you using eARC (ATV -> TV -> AVR) ?
I run ATV -> AVR -> TV

The symptoms could point to a need for the processor to re-set up a Dolby MAT transport with the sender. MAT is the transport protocol used by Blu-ray players and set-tops to send bitstream formats to the processors. If something causes the stream to pause long enough, then the processor might request a handshake with the sender, causing the drop-out.

Well, the big factor I want to draw attention to is how it only happens with Netflix.

HBOmax and Apple TV service both stream dolby vision and dolby atmos together in shows no problem. This has only happened on Netflix

Right now I'm almost done with the series See on Apple. Not one hiccup the whole time and it's dolby vision with atmos.

Maybe it is the Netflix node. I'm no aware of how all of that works. I just know my home gets between 500 and 600 mbps most all day. I've seen it drop down to 450 during peak hours. I could pay for 1 gbps or more but everything else runs fine.