Any good media streamers coming out, or just released lately?

[amey01]

Wow. So that really happened? Is that legal what that company from Switzerland did?

Probably a pertinent time to mention - people can actually be fooled in audio!

Humans do not have good auditory memory.

If anyone said "hey, this $30,000 Goldmund sounds no better than a cheap Pioneer", they would have been hit with the usual pejoratives of "have an open mind" and "obviously your system is not revealing enough" and "you've got tin-ears - go buy an LG sound bar"........

It also poses an interesting question: How many other brands are implicitly implicated here? I mean, how many people compared the $30,000 Goldmund to a $35,000 CH Precision, DarTZeel, Zanden et al; and thought the Goldmund sounded best?

But you know - people also used to think green pens were "essential".

And if anyone is old enough to remember the GSIC then you'll know what I mean.

Fits in pretty well with what we are discussing here.

I'll sum up by saying this: I don't think anyone can deny that there is a lot of snake oil in audio. Some stuff may not be - but when you conflate that against the many well-proven ways we can objectively achieve better sound - I know where I'm going to put my efforts.

Oh - and I still want to know how you can "re-clock" unclocked data?

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Just in case you were curious what Volumio looks like.

You can browse to Volumio on your local network with the browser on any device using http:\\volumio.local or use the Android or iPhone app.

They have a Contemporary and Classic user interface. Both allow changing the background artwork and colors.

The Classic shows less information on the screen at once, but seems to work better on a smart phone and the Contemporary UI seems better suited for a computer screen or a tablet.

This is the Classic UI looking at an album.

Then if you click Playback it shows a whole screen dedicated to just playblack

The ellipsis gives you a pop up menu for more information and the ability to jump to the artist or album. The + key allows you to add the track to a playlist and/or create a new playlist.

The contemporary UI has a side menu and shows what's playing at the bottom at all times, so it works well if you have more screen real-estate.

If I search for something from HOME at the top level it will look at all of your music sources. Below it suggests Web Radio stations with that artist, and then Spotify results.

However if you are searching from your local library it shows only the results on your hard drives.

They have the typical list view and image view options available.

The top level shows all of your sources for music.

That's just a brief overview, but the more I use it the better I like it.
I'm not using the subscription My Volumio at this time. It has additional functionality including Tidal support.

Fortunately I've ripped all my music already using JRiver which did a good job, but still required some fixing of the meta data for albums that it had trouble identifying. It had the means of easily mass editing music files and had other features that are not exposed in the free version of Volumio. I assume that the features unlocked with a subscription including ripping CD's would have that capability as well.

I still have JRiver installed on a computer with a CD player, so I can still always rip from there if the need arises.

I hope this was helpful to someone.

It sounds excellent, the same as my previous JRiver solution which required an entire PC.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I've tested Volumio with flac and aif files with bit rates up to 96kHz x 32 bits wide and not so much as a hiccup. I think that is as big as I've got in my collection.
( EDIT: I found some 192 kHz x 24bit files which also worked fine ) I got most of these higher rez files off of HDTracks.

 

[amey01]

I only just remembered that my out-of-service / old Audiolab M-DAC has a bitperfect test function. I had never bothered to use it, since I have performed checksums on the audio operation of my hardware, and I had no reason to further question the veracity of the USB standards.

But after this thread, thought it might be an easy way to post some simple proof. I pulled the old M-DAC out of a cupboard and connected it up for another party

Here is a picture of the test in operation - passing with flying colours!

And the second photo is proof that I am using a bog-standard USB cable.

Just to re-iterate - this test is being conducted through:

Logitech Media Server running on Raspberry Pi OS (Debian) on a 'Pi 3B+
UniFi gigabit POE switch
Unifi AP Pro
Wifi> PiCorePlayer running on 'Pi 3B+
USB
M-DAC

As you can see, there are no fancy ethernet cables, no fancy power supplies, no fancy USB cables. The 'Pis are powered by SWITCHING POWER SUPPLIES, schock horror!

Yet, the DAC is getting bitperfect data.

NOW - given that the DAC is the clock, you can't claim jitter or noise is a factor here. The bits are being received perfectly by a buffer in the DAC (perfectly, right?), and the DAC is the final (only) clock. There is nothing else that could impact the sound upstream.

And after all this - we still haven't got to the comprehensive error correction systems (Reed-Solomon encoding) embedded in our digital systems. The CD system (for example) can recover from a staggering amount of errors. (eg. scratched, fingerprinted, vandalised with green pen, CDs, whatever you throw at it). None of this is present on computer networks.

BUT.... even if this test did fail, the error correction systems would be more than capable of recovering.

I'm not expecting to change anyone's opinion whose mind is already made up - but posting for anyone who may come by this thread who is genuinely uncertain.

Now - where's agladstone?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you can have jitter in unclocked data? And how you can re-clock unclocked data?

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Your Raspberry Pi will sound better than perfect if you put it in a 50lb brushed steel case with spiked feet and charge $5,000 for it

But seriously, bit perfect is pit perfect. There is no way to improve the digital side of that equation.

 

[JLasher22443]

Hey so did either of you guys read that article I posted and how Gordon Rankin explained where the noise and errors come from?

I'm just saying even with your test amey01 you stated "BUT.... even if this test did fail, the error correction systems would be more than capable of recovering." This is where I get confused because Gordon is saying these errors and corrections are where the issue is?? Maybe?? So again not disagreeing just trying to understand and figure out how these Engineers and companies can say one thing and sell tons of products with no testing or evidence.

Below is Gordon Rankin's comment from the article.

“The three main USB transmission protocols are Bulk, Interrupt and Isochronous. Bulk (used for data transfer to a hard drive) and Interrupt are error-correcting. Isochronous (used for audio) is not.”

“Bulk and Interrupt are immediately NAK (negative acknowledgement). The receiver is designed to detect a bad packet immediately and the packet is resent.”

“For USB audio, the receiving device is basically translating a serial stream of data with a clock interwoven throughout. At the end of the packet sits some sort of block check. If the block check does not match the data then that packet is flagged as an error.”

“With Isoschronous USB transmission, packets are sent without any error correction / resending. But guess what? This is the USB protocol used for audio frames. The bad news is they are not error-free. The good news is these Isochronous frames are afforded the highest priority in the system.”

The Darko.Audio article to me was very informative and so are your comments. However it leads me more down the path of being more and more confused. LOL

 

[RCHeliGuy]

However it leads me more down the path of being more and more confused. LOL

First let me say that that article is misleading not by lying, but by misdirection and it explains other confusion in this thread. I'm sure some older primitive DAC's may suffer as mentioned. But no DAC from recent history should.

Isochronous USB is different from Asynchronous USB.

My OPPO 105D uses an Asynchronous USB driver as do most good DAC's out there.

There are 2 issues here.

#1 Does a USB connection inherently have issues without the addition of other equipment?

What amey01 showed was that his DAC was getting 100% bit perfect data across USB using a regular USB cable with no other devices to help.
If there were a CRC error he would have seen an indication that there was an error.

So that proves USB is pretty reliable without any help using normal USB cables and nothing else.

#2 How are CRC errors handled since the data is not retransmitted in asynchronous USB audio communication?

The simple answer is using the same Reed–Solomon error correction used in CDs and DVDs. Keep in mind that the pits in a CD, SA-CD, DVD, or BD that are stamped are NOT perfect. In fact the only way to truly get a guaranteed perfect music or video file is to buy music and video files directly from mastering, without this intermediate physical form. ( But it doesn't matter because it is corrected by CRC error handling )

This works similar to striped RAID technologies in that you can handle a pretty large number of errors before it has problems reconstructing the original data. If you go past the point where you can't reconstruct the signal, you have some serious issues. This is what happens when you damage a CD and your CD player has trouble playing. You've destroyed too much data and it can not play correctly.

"Reed–Solomon codes operate on a block of data treated as a set of finite-field elements called symbols. Reed–Solomon codes are able to detect and correct multiple symbol errors. By adding t = n − k check symbols to the data".

So the information to correct the data stream is transmitted along with the data stream as part of the protocol.

Conclusion:
If amey01 is seeing ZERO CRC errors while streaming music from his Raspberry Pi, he is likely getting a better data source from his Raspberry Pi across a plain USB cable than you get from your CD's and other optical media that you probably never thought to question about their data integrity.

 

[JLasher22443]

Interesting. Again I think all of this is way over my head but I think I'm getting it. Today I have been reading and watching this thread in AudioScienceReview I found.

Understanding Jitter in Digital Audio: Measurements and Listening Tests

Think I'm going to figure out how to build one of those Pi's you guys are talking about and try it in my system to see if it matches quality better or worse to the Mac Mini I have in the system now. I'd be interested to see and try. Plus would be cool to build and learn. Something out of my comfort zone.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I didn't watch the video, but I did see a comment under it, "Usual good work by Amir. And as he concludes, jitter is a solved problem, not the digital demon."

All the Raspberry Pi is doing is sending your digital files or digital streaming data to your DAC. It should have no impact on the sound quality. If your Mac Mini does the same, I wouldn't expect the sound quality to change.

For me the upside was huge because I was using what is now a $3K+ gaming computer to stream music and it lives in another room, so I rarely ever set it up with my stereo. As my gaming computer has evolved it now has more fans and it is now much louder than it used to be making it a very poor choice as a music server.

 

[zigman]

Mike over at Suncoast Audio just did software shootout for their Naim setup only changing streaming source between Roon, Aurender (Digital in), and native Naim app. Not sure if YouTube and a mobile phone/mic can really do justice to tell the difference but something fun to watch.

Part 1: Software Shootout - YouTube

Part 2: Software shootout - YouTube

Part 3: Software Shootout - YouTube

For the people new to high end audio, it all boils down to trying and hearing with your own ears and liking it. Everything matters in high end audio, I have been surprised many many times when I was able to try something out on my own system which I had originally blown off as insignificant. As a friend of mine always says, there are no absolutely in high end audio just preference. "Shouldn't" doesn't mean "won't", but that is just my opinion based on my experience. For me Roon sounds different than Audirvana which sounds different than native manufacturer app. All with the same exact gear - streamer, DAC, amp, cables, speakers, etc.

 

[amey01]

Hey so did either of you guys read that article I posted and how Gordon Rankin explained where the noise and errors come from?

I'm just saying even with your test amey01 you stated "BUT.... even if this test did fail, the error correction systems would be more than capable of recovering." This is where I get confused because Gordon is saying these errors and corrections are where the issue is?? Maybe?? So again not disagreeing just trying to understand and figure out how these Engineers and companies can say one thing and sell tons of products with no testing or evidence.

Yes, I did.

I think Mark answered it nigh on 100% perfectly, so I can't really add anything. Other than to say that yes, it is mostly correct - but it is not the "whole truth" - so it is misleading and deceitful by omission.

He is talking about the error correction mode in BULK transfer, without considering what happens in iso mode - that is Reed-Solomon.

Regardless - I've done enough tests now (and even posted about one in this thread) that proves there are no errors.

I did say before - don't post links from audio companies - people like Gordon have something to sell! Their salary depends on you not fully understanding. If you want to understand how it all works - please please please go straight to the USB-IF specs.

 

[amey01]

Your Raspberry Pi will sound better than perfect if you put it in a 50lb brushed steel case with spiked feet and charge $5,000 for it

But seriously, bit perfect is pit perfect. There is no way to improve the digital side of that equation.

Maybe I can licence my "design" to Goldmund for a 50% commission on sales?

 

[amey01]

The simple answer is using the same Reed–Solomon error correction used in CDs and DVDs. Keep in mind that the pits in a CD, SA-CD, DVD, or BD that are stamped are NOT perfect. In fact the only way to truly get a guaranteed perfect music or video file is to buy music and video files directly from mastering, without this intermediate physical form. ( But it doesn't matter because it is corrected by CRC error handling )

It is not just the pressing - when the CD was being developed way back in the 1970s, they knew they would get fingerprints on them, they knew they would be scratched, they knew they would be exposed to heat, warping, sand, sun, etc. And they knew that these things would result in a massive error rate. And they designed the digital systems we use today to be immune to that, and recover from those errors.

Honestly - the guys who designed this stuff knew what they were doing.....you can't improve it with cheap little tweaks!

(also to note...........how come your player is perfectly capable of sending a perfect USB signal to the "USB fixer", but it is not capable of sending it a further 30cm all the way to the DAC? )

 

[RCHeliGuy]

For the people new to high end audio,

This has NOTHING to do with being new to high end audio.

This is completely a matter of belief systems and sadly we will never agree on this subject matter.

So we can both smile and go to bed tonight being absolutely sure that we are right, and that is something that we will both need to live with. It's part of being human and I've learned not to hurt people's feelings by arguing about this subject matter here.

 

[zigman]

This has NOTHING to do with being new to high end audio.

This is completely a matter of belief systems and sadly we will never agree on this subject matter.

So we can both smile and go to bed tonight being absolutely sure that we are right, and that is something that we will both need to live with. It's part of being human and I've learned not to hurt people's feelings by arguing about this subject matter here.

I was just saying people should try things for themselves and trust their own ears. Not sure there is anything to argue with that in this hobby.

The reference to those being new to audio was to the posters who are new and asking good questions. It’s overwhelming at first and everyone gives great advice. I spent a lot of money and lost a bunch buying and selling different type of audio gear. Always nice to give back to the community what my personal experiences have been. Meant nothing else, in case it came across otherwise.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I was just saying people should try things for themselves and trust their own ears. Not sure there is anything to argue with that in this hobby.

Sadly the human brain is quite easily influenced by simple things. Hence my comment earlier about putting a $100 Raspberry Pi in a 50lb brushed steel case on spikes. If you see a substantial piece of equipment, your natural tendency is to associate quality and your brain will try to hear a difference where there is none. People are very subjective and every person sees and hears the world through their own filters and biases. Your mood, health and excitement level have an impact on what you hear. If you are excited about a new piece of equipment, you are likely to hear things you wouldn't if you were not excited.

It's not your ears that are the problem it's the grey squishy matter between your ears that interprets the signals it receives. The brain is highly complex and will find patterns if you are looking for them and will filter out information if you are not engaged. You can hear someone without listening to them. You can even repeat back what you heard without taking the time to think about the content that you just heard. You can filter out a conversation in a noisy room or just as easily miss it depending on how aware or distracted you are at that moment in time. There are countless variables that impact what your brain notices at any given time.

When something can be mathematically or empirically be shown to have zero impact on sound quality and yet someone suggests they hear a difference, I would suggest that they are putting too much trust in their subjective interpretation of the what they hear.

That is why I don't agree with your statement.

I've learned to avoid threads on certain subject matters because people will not change their beliefs and any suggestion that they are reading things into what they are hearing is seen as an insult. Then the retaliatory comments are that either my stereo is not good enough for me to notice, or I don't take listening to music seriously enough to notice the difference for myself. In the end everyone in the conversation is mad and sees the other side as being ignorant.

 

[user 49430]

What do people of the Apple announcement ?

https://www.apple.com/au/newsroom/2021/05/apple-music-announces-spatial-audio-and-lossless-audio/

 

[BigGuy]

Sadly the human brain is quite easily influenced by simple things. Hence my comment earlier about putting a $100 Raspberry Pi in a 50lb brushed steel case on spikes. If you see a substantial piece of equipment, your natural tendency is to associate quality and your brain will try to hear a difference where there is none. People are very subjective and every person sees and hears the world through their own filters and biases. Your mood, health and excitement level have an impact on what you hear. If you are excited about a new piece of equipment, you are likely to hear things you wouldn't if you were not excited.

Reminds me of a demonstration of an amplifier built by a member of our Connecticut Audio Society. The amp was built into an Audio Research chassis and case. People generally thought the amp sounded pretty good. When the member popped the hood, the case was pretty much empty except for a Class D module and some wire to the back connectors. There was a bit of back-peddling...

 

[Robert D]

Plus, we all know that something that costs more HAS to sound better.

 

[zigman]

First time I have heard that high end audio is not about listening and personal choice of picking different components.

I think we are a bit off topic, probably best we get back to the OPs question.