Another Martin Logan price increase coming August 1st.

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amey01

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Maybe you can start making them!
Probably. Or I could maybe make the whole speaker too. And amps and everything else. Where does it end?

But why? I've already paid good money for my speakers. And I made that decision after careful consideration. And now the premises of that decision appear to have changed.
 

Robert D

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If someone is really paranoid that Martin Logan might stop making the panels for their speakers ,they could order the panels now and just store them for the next 20 years or whatever it ends up being.
 

Big Dog RJ

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Well, there's not a lot of "development" expense on this product line, and there aren't any new breakthroughs in related areas that can really improve them. The ESL tech seems quite stable, the line includes on-board amps for the bass range that by all accounts are outstanding and even include highly effective DSP room correction tech for the bass. I don't see any obvious path for "new" and truly improved speakers in the Masterpiece line, other than for marketing purposes.

So.... price. If it's not R&D costs for new speakers, then "costs" are driving the pricing. We all know that labor isn't getting cheaper, raw materials aren't getting cheaper, rent (land/office) isn't getting any cheaper, and in fact, the strength of the US dollar may be working against it, as the parent company is Canadian.

Yeah, the value component is diminishing, but it's still there. I just bought 15As, but I could've easily had a significant upgrade over my Aerius speakers with an 11A, and if I was willing to forego ARC even the Classic 9 likely would've been a material improvement for me.

And it's not just at ML that we're seeing this. Arguably one of their bigger competitors is Magnepan. I was strongly considering 1.7s. 3.7s and 20.7s, all of which have been unchanged/unimproved for years and all of which might represent "better value." They, too, have gone through considerable price increases (though only one during the pandemic), and when you have their speakers you don't have to plan for replacing panels in ~20 years.

The reasons I opted to stay with ML? DSP on the bass, self-powered bass and form factor. The 20.7s are visually HUGE in the room vs 15As. Even at the new prices, my decision would remain the same, though I'll add I'm quite happy I bought them at the lower price.
Ah! The Maggie's ... good 'ol ribbons. Actually speaking "quasi-ribbon " not full true ribbon. Only the tweeter is a true ribbon. Compare these to Apogee's and Alsyvox or the French panels, Dyptique, which are far more sophisticated and several levels higher in quality, these are true ribbons. Guess why they cost 3-4 times more.

I've owned nearly every Maggie model, except for the MG20.7 and 30.7's. Went all the way from MGIIIa to MG20.1, real vfm and that's it! I've written about Maggie's before in my other posts, they are not highend. They are what you would refer to as very affordable panel-tech, with the capability of delivering high-quality sound driven by high quality gear. However, after a certain point, they reach their limits, and no matter what you drive them with further, doesn't necessarily improve the sound.

Whereas ML stats, whether full range or hybrids, there's no comparison whatsoever. Hence, that's the price we pay; high quality materials, parts and skilled workmanship. Some of the latest technology on the stats, incorporate carbon fibre and metal alloys, X-stat rigid air frames, vacuum bonded panels, no glues, E-I Core trannies, separate toroidal trannies used for midrange stat panels, even high grade pure stainless steel locking collars used in speaker terminals...these are just some of the high quality parts upgraded in every ML stat.

Magnepan never quite really improved on anything, not even its structure but there are many private owners who've done the upgrades themselves and yielded superior results. Some have even changed the input terminal plates and crossover boxes with very high quality parts, such as Mundorf and Dueland caps, plus metal foil resistors. In addition to structural bracing, making the maggies solidly anchored to the ground, and not flapping back & forth in the cross wind. These are real tangible upgrades in every way, and really improves their performance by a wide margin.

Anyway, Magnepan won't make such changes or upgrades as they believe it messes up their cost structure, so be it. If they wanted to make improvements, they would have done so years ago.
Same goes with the 30.7's, nothing major there either, other than 4 massive panels taking up nearly the width of the room!

They're pretty strong in their quasi-ribbon tech but the ribbon tweeter is so fragile, it can snap even with the force of a ceiling fan.
If I had a choice for a second system of speakers, this would be the order:
1. Alsyvox
2. Apogee
3. Avant Garde Horns

4. Maggie's (They're not anywhere near the above in terms of highend).

So, all in all, your 15A's are way ahead of Maggie's both in terms of tech & panel performance, there's just no comparison.
You'll be very glad you didn't settle on Maggie's, I can certainly bet on that!

Cheers to ML!
RJ
 

Robert D

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Ah! The Maggie's ... good 'ol ribbons. Actually speaking "quasi-ribbon " not full true ribbon. Only the tweeter is a true ribbon. Compare these to Apogee's and Alsyvox or the French panels, Dyptique, which are far more sophisticated and several levels higher in quality, these are true ribbons. Guess why they cost 3-4 times more.

I've owned nearly every Maggie model, except for the MG20.7 and 30.7's. Went all the way from MGIIIa to MG20.1, real vfm and that's it! I've written about Maggie's before in my other posts, they are not highend. They are what you would refer to as very affordable panel-tech, with the capability of delivering high-quality sound driven by high quality gear. However, after a certain point, they reach their limits, and no matter what you drive them with further, doesn't necessarily improve the sound.

Whereas ML stats, whether full range or hybrids, there's no comparison whatsoever. Hence, that's the price we pay; high quality materials, parts and skilled workmanship. Some of the latest technology on the stats, incorporate carbon fibre and metal alloys, X-stat rigid air frames, vacuum bonded panels, no glues, E-I Core trannies, separate toroidal trannies used for midrange stat panels, even high grade pure stainless steel locking collars used in speaker terminals...these are just some of the high quality parts upgraded in every ML stat.

Magnepan never quite really improved on anything, not even its structure but there are many private owners who've done the upgrades themselves and yielded superior results. Some have even changed the input terminal plates and crossover boxes with very high quality parts, such as Mundorf and Dueland caps, plus metal foil resistors. In addition to structural bracing, making the maggies solidly anchored to the ground, and not flapping back & forth in the cross wind. These are real tangible upgrades in every way, and really improves their performance by a wide margin.

Anyway, Magnepan won't make such changes or upgrades as they believe it messes up their cost structure, so be it. If they wanted to make improvements, they would have done so years ago.
Same goes with the 30.7's, nothing major there either, other than 4 massive panels taking up nearly the width of the room!

They're pretty strong in their quasi-ribbon tech but the ribbon tweeter is so fragile, it can snap even with the force of a ceiling fan.
If I had a choice for a second system of speakers, this would be the order:
1. Alsyvox
2. Apogee
3. Avant Garde Horns

4. Maggie's (They're not anywhere near the above in terms of highend).

So, all in all, your 15A's are way ahead of Maggie's both in terms of tech & panel performance, there's just no comparison.
You'll be very glad you didn't settle on Maggie's, I can certainly bet on that!

Cheers to ML!
RJ
My local Martin Logan dealer carried Magnepan in the past but stopped about 10 years ago. I always wondered, but I think I know why now. The shop has continued to sell Martin Logans. I'm glad I went with ML. Sounds like your experience has really shown which is better. I've never owned Magnepan so I can't comment
 

msimanyi

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I will admit I'm quite a fan of panels, and I'm quite a Magnapan fan. I have their 0.7 as my "surround" speaker and their wall mounted MMC2 as my rear speakers, and they are brilliant in those roles paired with my ML front and center speakers, and subwoofers.

My initial plan was to migrate to Maggies, but frankly that was thrown out when I revived my oooooold Aerius speakers with new panels as an interim solution, then didn't like Magnepan's CC5 center speaker I had acquired, so I replaced it with a 34A just before the *last* price increase. Much to the dismay of my bank account, the 34A decision only happened after I had committed to two BF210s before *their* prices increased.

I love RJ's posts, but I have to disagree with him slightly. Magnepan may not be at the level of the speakers he noted, but they're truly exceptional and in many ways an enormous value. The 20.7s, in particular, are about $10k less than the 15As and may outperform them in certain ways, while the 15As in turn outperform certain aspects of the 20.7s (and in my opinion, have better aesthetics for my room.)

In any case, it's been a really fun path I've traversed and I wouldn't change it if I could. I wouldn't have gone to this effort and expense, but I did it for my brother who had been working from home - my home - due to Covid, and he really loved all the improvements I made for both audio and video in the system. Unfortunately he succumbed last month to sepsis while being treated for leukemia, but I get to enjoy the fruits of that audio/video effort for years to come.

The 15As are going to be fun, both for two-channel and home theater use. I still have some other tweaks to add, but the system today, pre-15A, is incredibly resolving and draws me into listening to old favorites and newly discovered music (thanks Roon!) for hours on end. I want to add many thanks to @ttocs on this too, as his assistance with Dirac and subwoofers has been pivotal for the home theater configuration. (I bypass Dirac for two-channel playback.) My brother, Pete, was amazed by the results. I kinda cheated, doing a number of power cable and interconnect upgrades that really woke everything up. He noticed every time I'd make a change, but didn't know what changed to achieve those results. I still have a few cable and power upgrades to do, but they'll wait until I've worked the 15As into the system and broken them in.

Apologies in advance for all my rambling!
 

Robert D

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I will admit I'm quite a fan of panels, and I'm quite a Magnapan fan. I have their 0.7 as my "surround" speaker and their wall mounted MMC2 as my rear speakers, and they are brilliant in those roles paired with my ML front and center speakers, and subwoofers.

My initial plan was to migrate to Maggies, but frankly that was thrown out when I revived my oooooold Aerius speakers with new panels as an interim solution, then didn't like Magnepan's CC5 center speaker I had acquired, so I replaced it with a 34A just before the *last* price increase. Much to the dismay of my bank account, the 34A decision only happened after I had committed to two BF210s before *their* prices increased.

I love RJ's posts, but I have to disagree with him slightly. Magnepan may not be at the level of the speakers he noted, but they're truly exceptional and in many ways an enormous value. The 20.7s, in particular, are about $10k less than the 15As and may outperform them in certain ways, while the 15As in turn outperform certain aspects of the 20.7s (and in my opinion, have better aesthetics for my room.)

In any case, it's been a really fun path I've traversed and I wouldn't change it if I could. I wouldn't have gone to this effort and expense, but I did it for my brother who had been working from home - my home - due to Covid, and he really loved all the improvements I made for both audio and video in the system. Unfortunately he succumbed last month to sepsis while being treated for leukemia, but I get to enjoy the fruits of that audio/video effort for years to come.

The 15As are going to be fun, both for two-channel and home theater use. I still have some other tweaks to add, but the system today, pre-15A, is incredibly resolving and draws me into listening to old favorites and newly discovered music (thanks Roon!) for hours on end. I want to add many thanks to @ttocs on this too, as his assistance with Dirac and subwoofers has been pivotal for the home theater configuration. (I bypass Dirac for two-channel playback.) My brother, Pete, was amazed by the results. I kinda cheated, doing a number of power cable and interconnect upgrades that really woke everything up. He noticed every time I'd make a change, but didn't know what changed to achieve those results. I still have a few cable and power upgrades to do, but they'll wait until I've worked the 15As into the system and broken them in.

Apologies in advance for all my rambling!
How about the reliability/longevity of the Magnepans. How does that compare to the about 15 to 20 years for ML?
 

MisterB

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I will admit I'm quite a fan of panels, and I'm quite a Magnapan fan. I have their 0.7 as my "surround" speaker and their wall mounted MMC2 as my rear speakers, and they are brilliant in those roles paired with my ML front and center speakers, and subwoofers.

My initial plan was to migrate to Maggies, but frankly that was thrown out when I revived my oooooold Aerius speakers with new panels as an interim solution, then didn't like Magnepan's CC5 center speaker I had acquired, so I replaced it with a 34A just before the *last* price increase. Much to the dismay of my bank account, the 34A decision only happened after I had committed to two BF210s before *their* prices increased.

I love RJ's posts, but I have to disagree with him slightly. Magnepan may not be at the level of the speakers he noted, but they're truly exceptional and in many ways an enormous value. The 20.7s, in particular, are about $10k less than the 15As and may outperform them in certain ways, while the 15As in turn outperform certain aspects of the 20.7s (and in my opinion, have better aesthetics for my room.)

In any case, it's been a really fun path I've traversed and I wouldn't change it if I could. I wouldn't have gone to this effort and expense, but I did it for my brother who had been working from home - my home - due to Covid, and he really loved all the improvements I made for both audio and video in the system. Unfortunately he succumbed last month to sepsis while being treated for leukemia, but I get to enjoy the fruits of that audio/video effort for years to come.

The 15As are going to be fun, both for two-channel and home theater use. I still have some other tweaks to add, but the system today, pre-15A, is incredibly resolving and draws me into listening to old favorites and newly discovered music (thanks Roon!) for hours on end. I want to add many thanks to @ttocs on this too, as his assistance with Dirac and subwoofers has been pivotal for the home theater configuration. (I bypass Dirac for two-channel playback.) My brother, Pete, was amazed by the results. I kinda cheated, doing a number of power cable and interconnect upgrades that really woke everything up. He noticed every time I'd make a change, but didn't know what changed to achieve those results. I still have a few cable and power upgrades to do, but they'll wait until I've worked the 15As into the system and broken them in.

Apologies in advance for all my rambling!

Thank you for sharing the story about your brother. I'm so sorry for your loss. But it's so awesome that you guys got to share the audio journey for awhile. Those are memories you'll always have. I lost my older brother earlier this year, and he's the one I credit with getting me into hi-fi almost 40 years ago or more. He had this gigantic Onkyo receiver, TEAC tape deck and ESS speakers in his bedroom. And then several years later, he bought this big Kenwood rack system with enormous Sansui towers. I will always remember how he went and bought a Maynard Ferguson album on CD -- Body & Soul -- as one of the first CD's he played on the new system because he knew I was a big Maynard fan. To this day, I can't listen to the opening track "Expresso" without flashing right back to my brother cranking it on that system, which he had set up (much to my mom's chagrin) right in the middle of our very small family room, directly in front of the TV and fireplace... I wish he would have been able to come see and hear my system with the ML's in it. He would have been amazed by the panels. I know he would have loved it...
 

msimanyi

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Thanks @MisterB.

Okay - going wildly OT with this response. My brother was the family member who discovered Magnepans. I think he was in college (working summers - even in High School - making a lot of money for his age allowed some discretionary spending) and came home with some MGIIa (I think) speakers. I just remember they were HUGE. He powered them with a Sansui amp or receiver - I think the former - and had some sort of turntable for it all.

Our "fourth brother" - there were three of us - reflected at the memorial that he must've heard Supertramp "Breakfast in America" 50 times while they were working on speaker position, then as we got into our cars to go to the restaurant for a nice meal, Breakfast in America was playing on the radio. Freaky!

I am probably the only person who you'll hear this from: thank <your choice of deity> for the pandemic! I had 27 months laughing with Pete that I never would've had if he was working on location in Silicon Valley.
 

msimanyi

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How about the reliability/longevity of the Magnepans. How does that compare to the about 15 to 20 years for ML?
I really don't know, but I don't see a lot of discussions about their speakers failing or their performance reducing. I specifically asked the question and was told they are neither sensitive to UV light nor heat. Most of the comments I see are about the cloth being damaged, and Magnepan is able to provide it to you affordably to replace it yourself.

BTW, I'm not trying to encourage anyone to get Maggies. This is a forum for MLs, and I have been a fan of them since the mid-1990s. They worked great with a rebuilt Dynaco amp, and before I bought they demonstrated how awful some (expensive) amps sounded with them, as well as how truly amazingly they responded to Pass Aleph-0 amps. That clinched it for me: sounded great with my current amp and clearly responded to a fantastic amp of the era.

I'm sure the 15As are going to crush the performance of my vintage Aerius (Aeriuses? Aeri-ie? What's the plural???) and I’m looking forward to years of enjoyment.
 
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Big Dog RJ

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Yes matey, the Ren15a's will perform at such a higher level, it will drop the pants off any Maggie's, including the mighty 30.7's.

Oh! Don't get me wrong, if you read my posts carefully, Maggie's are fantastic panels, in fact Quasi-ribbon not true full ribbon. It's only the tweeter that are true ribbons. They are and will always be absolute vfm. Nothing can possibly touch them at their price point, in terms of overall value, performance, transparency and high resolution.

The problem is, that particular price point... this was well within the masses say 15 to 20yrs ago... but now, looking at the higher grade ones, like MG20.7's and the 30.7's, they're trying to compete in the highend.

In order to do this, then they must address the following basic elements:
1. Change those annoying speaker connections... those tiny bibs & bobs what on earth? Just replace those with high quality 5-way binding posts! And keep the fuses covered under a plate.
2. Change those T-shape feet... these are just plain awful when holding large heavier panels with no bracing at the back to support the flapping movements... simply lightly push with one finger and the whole panel moves. Just imagine when tunes are playing...
3. They must use more powerful magnets, such as Neodymium magnets, that are also used in every Alsyvox speakers. These magnets are the most powerful known on earth, and they can create some serious dynamics when properly designed.

There are other factors, such as staples and glues that Maggie's use, this is not high end. They need to start looking at bolts and secured bracing if they really want to compete in the highend league. From the models of the MG3 7i and below, the pricing is fair. This is real value that is untouchable! But from the MG20.7 upwards, the materials need a serious overhaul if they are seriously considering the highend. Or at least start with those three basic elements in improvement as noted above. Simply because many owners do these improvements themselves and it works wonders!

So if private owners can do this, then why can't Magnepan? After all they're a pretty big company but this seriously hampers their cost structure, in which case don't try to compete in the highend at all! Just stick with what you're great at and keep the price fair.
Just my 50cts worth...

Cheers, RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

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Maggie's if well and carefully looked after, will easily last a lifetime. Typically 15 to 20 yrs. But there are very critical areas:
1. They can't be vacuumed whatsoever! So the fabric starts to get dirty and dusty.
2. The glues start to wear off in more quickly in tropical climes compared to hot dry climates, and direct sunlight is a killer!
3. The wiring starts to oxidise, turning a very nasty green, especially in tropical climes or where's there's high humidity, and this green doesn't come off. The entire panel has to be replaced including all the magnet elements.
4. The staples wear off easily and things slowly peel off, leaving the panels start to rattle... this can easily be heard when driving with high power amplifiers.
5. The ribbon tweeter is so fragile, if you happen to sneeze or fart near it, it will break!
Even over driving the tweeter with high powered amps can cause the ribbon to snap and this is why they have protection tweeter fuses but sometimes these fuses are too slow, and pop goes a tweeter!
6. You can't use ceiling fans, or any device that directly blows a stream of air on to the ribbon tweeters, it will snap.
7. After about 3 - 4 years, the ribbon tweeter tends to sag... it loses tension and starts to twist around like those ribbon foils decorations on X-mas trees. This is getting closer to a ribbon snapping, and before you know it, the tweeter breaks.

I've replaced about 16 ribbon tweeters in my life of owning Maggie's it wasn't fun replacing them! It's a pain in the Butt with a capital "B!"

Apart from that, Maggie's are great👍
🍻 RJ
 

Robert D

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Maggie's if well and carefully looked after, will easily last a lifetime. Typically 15 to 20 yrs. But there are very critical areas:
1. They can't be vacuumed whatsoever! So the fabric starts to get dirty and dusty.
2. The glues start to wear off in more quickly in tropical climes compared to hot dry climates, and direct sunlight is a killer!
3. The wiring starts to oxidise, turning a very nasty green, especially in tropical climes or where's there's high humidity, and this green doesn't come off. The entire panel has to be replaced including all the magnet elements.
4. The staples wear off easily and things slowly peel off, leaving the panels start to rattle... this can easily be heard when driving with high power amplifiers.
5. The ribbon tweeter is so fragile, if you happen to sneeze or fart near it, it will break!
Even over driving the tweeter with high powered amps can cause the ribbon to snap and this is why they have protection tweeter fuses but sometimes these fuses are too slow, and pop goes a tweeter!
6. You can't use ceiling fans, or any device that directly blows a stream of air on to the ribbon tweeters, it will snap.
7. After about 3 - 4 years, the ribbon tweeter tends to sag... it loses tension and starts to twist around like those ribbon foils decorations on X-mas trees. This is getting closer to a ribbon snapping, and before you know it, the tweeter breaks.

I've replaced about 16 ribbon tweeters in my life of owning Maggie's it wasn't fun replacing them! It's a pain in the Butt with a capital "B!"

Apart from that, Maggie's are great👍
🍻 RJ
The simplicity of the electrostatic panel is a huge advantage. Seems less to go wrong.

Why can't the owner vacuum their Magnepan panels?

I didn't realize that Magnepans have powerful magnets in them. I have an implanted defibrillator, so getting near one would be a bad idea for me! I'll have to remember that.
 

Big Dog RJ

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The simplicity of the electrostatic panel is a huge advantage. Seems less to go wrong.

Why can't the owner vacuum their Magnepan panels?

I didn't realize that Magnepans have powerful magnets in them. I have an implanted defibrillator, so getting near one would be a bad idea for me! I'll have to remember that.
They can't be vacuumed simply due to the fragile elements of the ribbon itself and the ribbon tweeter. It will get sucked into the vacuum force and break very easily. In fact, in every Maggie owner's manual, it clearly states "DO NOT Vacuum!" Over time, the fabric does get dirty but these can be replaced. They are covers to protect the entire surface of the ribbon panels, and are transparent to sound. So sound travels through these covers... whereas with electro-stats, especially ML stats, there aren't any covers! Only the bare stators with micro-perforated holes in each stator, allowing more of the sound to travel through, which gives it a greater sense of transparency. With fabric covers on the frames, this is why Maggie's sound denser compared to ML's and this is why many use subs with their stats. ML stats are pure, as simple as it gets with the highest levels in transparency and startling speed. The moment covers are added, all these parameters change, and that's why ML does not use fabric covers.

Other ESL's, like Quad and Jansen, use fabric covers and various layers of multiple covers for dust etc., hence they're not as transparent as ML's. The moment you compare them side by side, you can tell the difference straight away!

The covers on Maggie's slide downwards ... but it's not as easy as I say. You have to reorder new ones if you damage them during installation. The best way to look after Maggie's is to fully cover them up when not in use, black cloths preferable as not allow sunlight through but it still gets through if directly located close to windows.

No, the magnets used in Maggie's are not that powerful, they're pretty average. What I meant was, that they should start incorporating the Neodymium magnets, which are the same types used in all Alsyvox ribbon speakers. These are very rare types of magnets and are very costly, so the average price of Maggie's will go through the roof! And this is something that they won't do, otherwise they would have done so long before. However, what I meant was, at least in their top of the line speakers, such as the MG20.7 and 30.7, they should have used Neodymium's, then improved on those three factors I stated earlier, and then this would be in the high-end category. It would be a true game changer for Magnepan, and something of a force to reckon with but yet they stick to the same old magnets, same old glues, staples, fabrics, T-feet and those awful speaker connectors and still charge a high price for their top of the line. That's a point many are talking about here.

I guess Maggie's are still great VFM in the US and other duty free markets, like Spore, Dubai and other Middle east regions but in Aus, they're not that affordable any more. They're still much less than ML's but still cost a pretty penny if anyone was considering the MG3.7i and above... The MG20.7's are over 15grand and the 30.7's are 56grand. Sometimes they charge more for the 30.7's depending on finish and color of fabric. Only two systems of MG30.7's were sold in Aus, one was around 48grand when it first arrived here in Nov 2019, and the other one sold for around 60grand, with special colored side trims. That's a lot of dollars with hardly any tangible improvements in materials and design. And that's another point many are talking about.

Just thought I'd mention since you asked. Cheers mate,
RJ
 
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