Adding a sub woofer with a pair of 15As

MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum

Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
At some point this starts to be a waste of assets, as by stacking the subs relatively near to each other, you are just increasing the amplitude, as you already have reached reference levels. [it does not make any difference whether you have 21 or 24dB headroom], it will still not get you nearer to infrasonic area.

This is how my modest setup looks like in-room - purple one is 2x1600 & 2x 1600, placed along the front wall + 2 x 1600 individual in rear corners [see my system in the members area]. This is with the -12dB gain on subs to get to calibration level of 82dB

View attachment 23977


My personal next step is to go vertical and have custom build pcs 15in subs to be placed on wall, as per Trinnov recommendation - one upfront abve the screen and one on the back wall.
Partly disagree. You raise the subs up higher and conquer your ceiling height standing waves. And I will listen above reference, so.

Do you have your subs rolled off? With room gain my 212s do better than those 1600s it seems, which I thought would be the opposite
 
Partly disagree. You raise the subs up higher and conquer your ceiling height standing waves. And I will listen above reference, so.

Do you have your subs rolled off? With room gain my 212s do better than those 1600s it seems, which I thought would be the opposite

I have different approach, but also throwing more subs in is a solution. I do believe in proper sub placement, acoustics and DRC. 1600X are ideal compromise - 15in, fast woofer, sealed, in room well below 18Hz. And Trinnov is able to squeeze last drop out of them. All I am saying, that there are much more efficient ways to get the real deal than buying six more 12inch woofers subs. And if you want to go real infrasonic way, try something like this - SMSG24 the 24" infrasonic subwoofer that belongs into each theater , 2 pcs and you are good to go.

I can not go much deeper than my current 15Hz at ref level, it is still a flat, even if it is a penthouse, so I have passed on 18/21in subs.

Actually, I am in discussion to buy 2 Procellas double 15in to add to to my room, as Trinnov has announced their new 3D Active Bass Management, that requires at least 2 subs on the wall, 6 feet above the ground plane.
 
I have different approach, but also throwing more subs in is a solution. I do believe in proper sub placement, acoustics and DRC. 1600X are ideal compromise - 15in, fast woofer, sealed, in room well below 18Hz. And Trinnov is able to squeeze last drop out of them. All I am saying, that there are much more efficient ways to get the real deal than buying six more 12inch woofers subs. And if you want to go real infrasonic way, try something like this - SMSG24 the 24" infrasonic subwoofer that belongs into each theater , 2 pcs and you are good to go.

I can not go much deeper than my current 15Hz at ref level, it is still a flat, even if it is a penthouse, so I have passed on 18/21in subs.

Actually, I am in discussion to buy 2 Procellas double 15in to add to to my room, as Trinnov has announced their new 3D Active Bass Management, that requires at least 2 subs on the wall, 6 feet above the ground plane.
Thanks man. I'm happy with my setup and I know I'll love it even more with a few more subs. Yours sounds great! I'm sure you love it as well
 
See file. Sorry man no it doesnt work like that. You have not really heard it yet
So basically just about every movie is like this, low freqencies diminished? When they say master audio, that it's the original sound track from the master tapes, that it really isn't? It's been monkeyed with?
This software you speak of doesn't just add in more low frequency artificially, sound that was never there when it was recorded?
 
Last edited:
So basically just about every movie I'd like this, low freqencies diminished? When they say master audio, that it's the original sound track from the master tapes, that it really isn't? It's been monkeyed with?
This software you speak of doesn't just add in more low frequency artificially, sound that was never there when it was recorded?
Yes. Except for a very small handful. Some are not this bad. Some, like Star Trek Beyond and the Bournes are worse. Point it, the single greatest upgrade to my subs was not adding more or EQ, it was this. And its not even the BIG explosions (dont get me wrong, they are cool) but you would be amazed how much 20hz in low level makes everything sound real, enveloping and awesome.

There is one for each movie, at least most. You can request one if its not there and the guys may do it for you. They even do it for TV shows. Its just boosting the levels off the roll off to where they should be. Not artificial, but it is a work around. But it works!

Na, master audio is only for the easily deceived and you are not! So don't believe it.

There is a many thousand page thread on AVSForum with everything you need to know. It is WORTH IT
 
Yes. Except for a very small handful. Some are not this bad. Some, like Star Trek Beyond and the Bournes are worse. Point it, the single greatest upgrade to my subs was not adding more or EQ, it was this. And its not even the BIG explosions (dont get me wrong, they are cool) but you would be amazed how much 20hz in low level makes everything sound real, enveloping and awesome.

There is one for each movie, at least most. You can request one if its not there and the guys may do it for you. They even do it for TV shows. Its just boosting the levels off the roll off to where they should be. Not artificial, but it is a work around. But it works!

Na, master audio is only for the easily deceived and you are not! So don't believe it.

There is a many thousand page thread on AVSForum with everything you need to know. It is WORTH IT
Thanks. It does make sense. Looking at the rapid roll off of sound amplitude at the low freqencies does look artificial. If there is a big explosion in real life, is the curve flatter down low? I'm guessing yes. I'd love to see a live explosion analyzed like this and then compare the same explosion as it is presented in the movie.

Can you send me a message with a link to get me started on this? Some brief info would be much appreciated. It sounds like it's free software available, but how is it used to watch a movie on disc or streamed?
 
I have different approach, but also throwing more subs in is a solution. I do believe in proper sub placement, acoustics and DRC. 1600X are ideal compromise - 15in, fast woofer, sealed, in room well below 18Hz. And Trinnov is able to squeeze last drop out of them. All I am saying, that there are much more efficient ways to get the real deal than buying six more 12inch woofers subs. And if you want to go real infrasonic way, try something like this - SMSG24 the 24" infrasonic subwoofer that belongs into each theater , 2 pcs and you are good to go.

I can not go much deeper than my current 15Hz at ref level, it is still a flat, even if it is a penthouse, so I have passed on 18/21in subs.

Actually, I am in discussion to buy 2 Procellas double 15in to add to to my room, as Trinnov has announced their new 3D Active Bass Management, that requires at least 2 subs on the wall, 6 feet above the ground plane.
How do you mount a big sub on the wall without introducing bad vibrations against the wall itself? Doesn't that couple the movement of the woofer to the wall and make the wall part of the speaker? I know that respectable companies make in wall subs, but I'm leery of them because of this fear. I guess you'd have to have a special wall that's been engineered to be insulated? You couldn't just take a big sub and attach it to a standard drywall could you?
 
So I am enjoying my big bad MLs for most of my music that I listen to. The super tight bass, from the sealed woofers are fantastic.

However, I recently put on LL COOL J, Going Back to Cali, as it has some TREMENDOUS lows. I turned up the bass from my Michi AMP all the way. I went to the back of the speakers and turned the knows up.

And after listening to that track, I have to admit, I was a bit underwhelmed. Perhaps do I need a sub woofer added? With built in dual 600 watt speakers and the money I spent I feel that should be unnecessary.

Should I add a aub
All material played will NOT sound the same. Doesn't mean you're speakers are lacking bass. For 2 channel listening I play my 11As full range and the bass is great but definitely not with everything. I only engage my subs when watching movies. If setup correctly, with the right power and distance, your 15As should put out great bass without subs UNLESS you just want more.
 
All material played will NOT sound the same. Doesn't mean you're speakers are lacking bass. For 2 channel listening I play my 11As full range and the bass is great but definitely not with everything. I only engage my subs when watching movies. If setup correctly, with the right power and distance, your 15As should put out great bass without subs UNLESS you just want more.
Disagree man. Speakers cannot do what multiple subs can in terms of smooth frequency response. It just isnt possible
 
Disagree man. Speakers cannot do what multiple subs can in terms of smooth frequency response. It just isnt possible

Agreed...not what I meant at all. IMO, ML integrated the drivers dang near perfect in the Masterpiece series and the 15As dual twelves, played in full range, properly setup, and adequately powered, sound great without subs in 2 channel listening....too me. Of course, many factors in the equation...room anomalies, acoustics, equipment, etc, etc. I've heard them setup at a demo...with no subs and they were true beasts throughout the listening spectrum, with many genre's or music. Probably the best demo I've heard from a pair of speakers less than $100k. But man its perfectly cool if you feel opposite...we all have different taste, and I'm a true believer in "the measurements" aren't always the golden for every ear.
 
Last edited:
How do you mount a big sub on the wall without introducing bad vibrations against the wall itself? Doesn't that couple the movement of the woofer to the wall and make the wall part of the speaker? I know that respectable companies make in wall subs, but I'm leery of them because of this fear. I guess you'd have to have a special wall that's been engineered to be insulated? You couldn't just take a big sub and attach it to a standard drywall could you?
For vertical subs you are not looking to add more extension, but rather that elusive 3D bass sensation and of course smoothness.

I am now in discussions with one German Trinnov HT specialist-
Merovinger OnWall 2.2 Lautsprechersystem | Audio-Freak they can build 15 in dual woofer sub, specifically designed to be placed on wall.

the other option would be to just make a console and place normal sub on it (here we are in “I don’t care how it looks” area. My situation is a bit specific as I am building towards this setup (starts after approx 9 minutes of technical issues. :). ) GoToStage.com
 
For vertical subs you are not looking to add more extension, but rather that elusive 3D bass sensation and of course smoothness.

I am now in discussions with one German Trinnov HT specialist-
Merovinger OnWall 2.2 Lautsprechersystem | Audio-Freak they can build 15 in dual woofer sub, specifically designed to be placed on wall.

the other option would be to just make a console and place normal sub on it (here we are in “I don’t care how it looks” area. My situation is a bit specific as I am building towards this setup (starts after approx 9 minutes of technical issues. :). ) GoToStage.com
Should be amazing.
 
Should be amazing.

Yes, I had a chance to listen to the TRINNOV demo in Barcelona - and it was out of this world. Cant' wait to have it at home in the couple of months.
I think my setup is not bad, with all the room treatments, electronics and Trinnov, I have ruler flat response time domain out of textbook, but it just does not compare to it.
 
At some point this starts to be a waste of assets, as by stacking the subs relatively near to each other, you are just increasing the amplitude, as you already have reached reference levels. [it does not make any difference whether you have 21 or 24dB headroom], it will still not get you nearer to infrasonic area.

This is how my modest setup looks like in-room - purple one is 2x1600 & 2x 1600, placed along the front wall + 2 x 1600 individual in rear corners [see my system in the members area]. This is with the -12dB gain on subs to get to calibration level of 82dB

View attachment 23977


My personal next step is to go vertical and have custom build pcs 15in subs to be placed on wall, as per Trinnov recommendation - one upfront abve the screen and one on the back wall.
Fidji, I'd like to learn more about how this measurement was made. That resultant curve is virtually flat, a truly stellar result. It's almost beyond belief. What gear and software did you use? Where was the microphone placed relative to each of the listening positions? Is this the tuned and optimized response for a specific listening position, or are you able to get this response simultaneously at ANY position in the listening area?

Why do you feel it's desirable to extend the array of sub-woofers vertically? Could you explain more what you mean by "elusive 3D bass sensation"?
 
Last edited:
If I've come across earlier as skeptical, I was and still am. But I didn't know about TRINNOV, either, and now I'm educating myself and have learned a little.

I have had experience with muli-channel playback and what that can do relative to stereo reproduction. It isn't lost on me that to truly reproduce the sound field faithfully, especially to more than one listener, it takes more than just a pair of speakers and maybe a subwoofer.

I hope TRINNOV is one of those things one can learn about without having to invest a fortune to try out and experiment.

And, of course, there's always headphones! :)

Thanks, Fidji, for the introduction.
 
I came upon Trinnov a few years ago and have been impressed ever since. Download the manuals and look them over, they're quite detailed.
Are there some pre-amps out there that have it that are priced under $10k? Im not familiar with it at all.
 
Out of curiosity, how have you made your choice of location for your subs?
I'm not sure who you're asking, but in my case, the placement was in part guided by long experience, especially with this very room, and in part by recommendations in knowledgeable white papers, including those written by Martin Logan.

To begin, I started with a single Martin Logan Balanced Force 210 located in the right corner of the room (the end with the screen and the L, R and center channel speakers). That's where the JBL sub I described earlier was located and the results were very satisfying. However, with the Montis and 210, even after extensive attempts using Martin Logan's own software and room correction provided within the prevailing A/V receiver, the deep bass was uneven. It was difficult to produce a strong bass response at more than one seating location without changing settings.

Later, I bought a second subwoofer, the Dynamo 1100X, which I originally anticipated would go into the left hand corner, but to my surprise, this placement actually made matters worse. This emphasized the long room resonance and did a relatively poor job of exciting the deep bass at frequencies where there was already weak response.

I then proceeded on the basis of two recommendations. The first was to be willing to locate the sub where it sounded best despite preconceived notions. This included even the possibility of placing the second sub in the middle of the room! And the second was recognition of a goal that, at least where LFE was concerned, a location directly behind or below the backsides of the primary movie listening spots was going to deliver best the low frequency energy to the movie viewers without a great deal of worry about how the room responded as a whole.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't use the subs for music listening. I don't need to. The Montis bass drivers work well (adequately and smoothly) with the units in the L & R speaker locations (on either side of a large 120" screen). I don't need added subs to obtain a really satisfying concert grand performance, or a full-tilt orchestra, or even the Bach Passacaglia and Fugue. Jazz ensembles, vocalists, dance music -- all of this comes across wonderfully without the need for subs.

Dealing with jet engine exhausts on an aircraft carrier or explosions or action films is another matter. When movies or TV surround viewing is enjoyed, the two subs kick in and do their thing. The levels weigh on the side of a little less than two much. IMHO it does the job without calling excessive attention.

As in many household situations, this room represents compromises. It's a great place in the center of family life, and my wife and I don't want to watch movies in a converted garage or the basement. The Montis pair, driven by the Benchmark AHB2, does a more than adequate and satisfying job for most of what I care about. The two added subs, one located conventionally, the other perhaps not, add the magic when a sub is the only way to get the job done.

If I had the room and the budget to build a home theater, the story of how best to deploy subwoofers would be very different. It's an interesting story to hear about and enjoy with others, but it's not my story in my chosen space.

One more thing, which is admittedly going outside the subject of this thread and even the nature of your question. It has to do with what, IMHO, Martin Logan ESLs are best at. IMHO, it is NOT Home Theater, though many may use them that way. I think I'll defer the rest of my comments on this to a separate thread which will afford me a better opportunity to discuss this.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top