A/V Receiver or Pre/Pro for new Blu-Ray formats?

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Craig

Craig

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I'm considering changing out my B&K Ref 50 Preamp Processor in my HT system so that I can take advantage of the current audio/video formats. My B&K pre/pro is nice piece but it seems to have fallen behind in technology and I'd like to upgrade from DVD to a Blu-Ray player.

I haven't seen any pre/pro units that handle the new audio/video formats and HDMI cables but the receivers are way ahead in this department. So does anyone have any recommendations on a receiver to use as a pre/pro with my Sunfire 5 channel amp? Or are there any dedicated pre/pro's on the market that are designed to decode Blu-Ray formats such as DTS-MA, that is priced less than $3K or so?

I've been looking for a Blu-Ray player that will do the decoding internally and output via analog RCA jacks into the pre/pro but it appears that of them only output via the HDMI cable.
 
Craig,

There are currently five pre/pro's that have all the latest lossless audio decoding for Blu-ray (and HD DVD), and have 1.3a HDMI switching/scaling. These are:

Integra RDC 9.8 ($1,600)
Onkyo PR-SC885P ($1,800)
Marantz AV8003 ($2,599.99)
Denon AVP-A1HDCI ($7,000)
Simaudio Moon CP-8 ($15,000)

But as you can see, only three are priced below $3,000. The Integra DTC 9.8 has been a hot seller due to it's very attractive price/performance point. The Marantz unit just got released, so no user reviews as of yet, but it looks to be a solid unit with a slew of features. The Onkyo is basically an Integra with the same Silicon Optix Reon video processing chip, so for $200 less the Integra is the one to get between the two.

Hope this helps.:)


Seth
 
Craig, I'd recommend looking into the Marantz, as its likely to 'borrow' some technologies from their sister company, Denon.

If you can stretch the budget some, the AVP-A1HD is stunning in it's capabilities, and the reviews claim true 'audiophile' level performance as a straight-up preamp. Street prices are closer to $5K.
 
These are actually pretty reasonable prices for separates. The costs for this sort of component has seemed to come down since the last time I went shopping for one a few years ago.

The amount of features and decoding options in a receiver or a pre/pro is mind boggling these days. And surprisingly, they still offer a phono preamplifier function.

I'll see if I can stretch the budget a little for the Marantz, otherwise the Integra looks pretty good for the price. I noticed the Integra has the Audyssey room correction and that's a valuable feature I initially overlooked. At least it appears to be worthwhile from what I've read on this forum.
 
I got a chance to listen to the Sunfire TGP-5 a few weeks back. This is an outstanding HT and audio Pre. It will accommodate most of the current standards as will as HDMI switching. It is also flash upgradeable. Well worth looking into.
 
I've noticed that more and more Blu-ray's are going with 5.1 Uncompressed for their HD audio track. If that's the case then you're still going to need a pre/pro and Blu-ray player that can pass multi-channel PCM via HDMI or seperate analog cables.

I have a Denon 4806 with a PS3 connected via HDMI and so far the only format issues I've had are with the PS3 not supporting DTS HD. The PS3 does all the decoding (if needed) and passes everything to the Denon over the HDMI as multi-channel PCM. I haven't compared the PS3 to other higher end players but compared to the Denon SD player I have and my 360+HD DVD player, it sounds great.

-steve
 
Overture just emailed me this:

Jason,

Quick update.

We are receiving the NAD products early this week. I’ll connect them and let you know how it is.

Best regards,

Roni

I have been looking and waiting to upgrade my receiver also. For me they suggested the NAD T-175.
 
stevenic said:
I've noticed that more and more Blu-ray's are going with 5.1 Uncompressed for their HD audio track. If that's the case then you're still going to need a pre/pro and Blu-ray player that can pass multi-channel PCM via HDMI or seperate analog cables.

I have a Denon 4806 with a PS3 connected via HDMI and so far the only format issues I've had are with the PS3 not supporting DTS HD. The PS3 does all the decoding (if needed) and passes everything to the Denon over the HDMI as multi-channel PCM. I haven't compared the PS3 to other higher end players but compared to the Denon SD player I have and my 360+HD DVD player, it sounds great.

-steve
Click to expand...

If the BluRay players would decode and output in 5.1 channel analog I'd be set with my current pre/pro but I don't think there are any that do that. I don't think my B&K Ref50 is setup for 5.1 PCM unless that is what you use for the digital coax or optical.

I plan to use a PS3 as my Blu-Ray player but they're still hard to find. Sony has a package deal on the 80gb PS3 that includes a game and some sort of upgraded controller. It all totals $500 but I'll be lucky if the local game store in the mall gets them in later this week. The PS3 is supposed to be the same BR player as their $600 dedicated BR model. With the PS3 I can watch Blu-Ray, Surf the net, play hi-rez games and play an SACD through a late model pre/pro or receiver all at a lesser price than an equivalent Sony BR player.

I'll check out the Pioneers this week since my favorite local store carries them (Sound Advice). Although, I think Pioneer is receivers only and no pre/pro yet.
 
Craig said:
I don't think my B&K Ref50 is setup for 5.1 PCM unless that is what you use for the digital coax or optical.
Click to expand...

S/PDIF (coax/optical connection) can only carry 2 channel PCM or multi-channel Dolby & DTS. So anything multi-channel over S/PDIF is going to be compressed which is less then ideal.

I haven't seen any players either that output multi-channel analog but I've been pretty happy with my PS3 so honestly I haven't been looking.

So when going the PS3 route you have to use HDMI if you want multi-channel PCM support. And the only way to pass Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD to a reciever for decoding, that I know of, is via an HDMI 1.3 or better connection. So no matter where you decide to do the decoding at you're starting in the right place by looking for a reciever or pre/pro that supports HDMI.

With regards to which side to do the decoding on does it really matter? All you're doing is applying an algorithm to convert a lossless encoding into a digital PCM stream and whether you apply the algorithm in the player or in the pre/pro its the same algorithm. It either works or it doesn't. I'm a Software Engineer and I don't really buy the arguments that a hi end pre/pro or reciever might be able to do a better job at doing the decoding than a lower end player would. Short of a bug in the decoding algorithm the biggest variable is latency and one processor might decode the stream a little faster then the other but even the low end players like the PS3 have really fast processors (most likely several times faster then any of the hi end players) to do the decoding with. So I'm fine with using a PS3 and having it do all the decoding... :)

-steve
 
Last edited:
stevenic said:
I haven't seen any players either that output multi-channel analog but I've been pretty happy with my PS3 so honestly I haven't been looking.
Click to expand...
The new Sony BDP-S550 (coming soon) will output in MCH Analog and all decoded internally.

"7.1 channel Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, dts-HD High Resolution Audio, and dts-HD Master Audio decoding and bit-stream output, as well as 7.1 channel analog audio output."
 
DTB300 said:
The new Sony BDP-S550 (coming soon) will output in MCH Analog and all decoded internally.

"7.1 channel Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, dts-HD High Resolution Audio, and dts-HD Master Audio decoding and bit-stream output, as well as 7.1 channel analog audio output."
Click to expand...

If I went this route then I could continue with pre/pro I already have. Although, I wonder what the price would be on the new Sony and when that would be available?

__________________
At Motel 6 in Amish Country I wonder if they leave the light on for you?

I'm sure they'll leave the candle burning for and offer "free wireless".
 
According to the HDTV lounge the new Sony BDP-S550 will be available this fall for around $500.
 
Another PS3 owner here, waiting for the pre-pro market to shake out a little bit before upgrading my system.

I am hoping that the Marantz AV-8003 will be the one, but I think with some patience (i.e waiting till closer to the end of the year) there will be more options. I am thinking about the Cary Cinema 11a in particular, but there should also be an updated Rotel unit that will decode the Dolby True HD/DTS MA, Outlaw should have a unit towards the end of the year, BK will have their updated unit out in the next couple of months for example.

So it may be worth waiting a little bit to see how the reviews shake out on the "second generation" of the HDMI 1.3 compliant Pre Pros.

But if you are in a hurry and are using something like a PS3 to output the Multichannel PCM stream, there is Rotel (RSP-1069) and NAD T-175 that can handle those streams now, and may offer a little better sound than the Onkyo/Integra twins.

BTW, I don't know if I am imagining things, but it seems to me that even the legacy Dolby Digital soundtracks on Blu Ray sound more dynamic and just a bit better using the optical out of the PS3. Does anyone know if there are any differences in regular Blu Ray DD?

Chuck
 
cstory said:
I don't know if I am imagining things, but it seems to me that even the legacy Dolby Digital soundtracks on Blu Ray sound more dynamic and just a bit better using the optical out of the PS3. Does anyone know if there are any differences in regular Blu Ray DD?
Click to expand...

All DD+ tracks include a manditory 640k AC-3 track which is the maximum bitrate supported by standard DD. The typical AC-3 stream on a SD DVD is around 448k so even when using the core AC-3 track, Blu-rays are likely to sound better then their SD counterparts.

I'm not exactly sure what the PS3 does transcoding wise for other formats but its likely that they all get transcoded to the same 640k AC-3 track when routed over S/PDIF. So again, it would make sense that all Blu-rays seem to sound better, even when connected via S/PDIF.

Here are the sources of the above numbers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Digital_Plus
http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/authorburn/intro.htm

-steve
 
Steve,

Thanks for the info. That may be what I am hearing.

Chuck
 
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