a few questions on vantage and vista

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GlassWolf

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I have a carpeted living room of 16'x20', and would like to replace my aging KEF reference 104/2 mains with a pair of either Vista or Vantage MLs.
I will be powering them with 4 channels of my Onkyo NR5007 AVR (bi-amped)

Would the onkyo be sufficient to drive the woofer portion of the Vistas or will I need to go to the Vantage to get a decent response from them for both HT and pure audio use?

Are these speakers the appropriate choice for this sized room? here is a pic of the room itself where they will go, although the RPTV in the pic is replaced by a wall mounted 58" plasma now.

http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu47/Glass_Wolf/house/1461830.png

Thanks for any suggestions and help. I'd prefer the Vista simply due to the lower price if they will work, but if the resluts will be less than ideal I understand, and will save up for the Vantages.

The forum is saying I have to increase the length of this post so here is the equipment I am using at present:

TV/Monitor
Samsung PN58C8000 - 58" plasma 1080P F3DHD HDTV (May 2010) (1) (2)
AV Receiver
Onkyo TX-NR5007 THX™ Ultra2 Plus™ Certified 9.2 Channel Network Receiver (1) (2) (3)
Onkyo UWL-1 - Wireless USB Audio Transport
Onkyo UP-HT1 - HD Radio Tuner
DVD
Panasonic DMP-BD55K High Definition Blu-Ray DVD Player

DVR
HR23/700 DirecTV HD DVR with S3 Slimline 5LNB dish & eSATA ext. HDD 1.5TB
includes Multi-room and On Demand via 802.11n wifi
LDP
Panasonic LX-H670U multi-beam laserdisc player
VCR
Toshiba W808 6-head HiFi S-VHS recorder

Turntable
Ion USB belt-drive turntable
Tape deck
Nakamichi DR-1 Discrete 3-head tape deck

Control
Logitech Harmony 900 Universal RF Advanced Remote

Power
APC Line-R 600VA Line Conditioners
APC Back-UPS 600 UPS

Speakers
7.1 A/V speaker setup
KEF Reference Series 104/2 Raymond Cooke Limited Edition mains, bi-amp
(type SP3128 matched pair, bi-wire, rosewood finish)
Pinnacle P-5.5 center-channel
Polk Audio FXi3 dipole surrounds
Polk Audio FXi3 bipole rear surrounds
Energy e:XL-S12 powered subwoofer

Iinterconnects
KnuKonceptz Karma SS speaker cables, 12AWG bi-wire, eKs BFA banana plugs (mains)
KnuKonceptz Karma SS speaker cables, 12AWG, eKs BFA banana plugs (center, surrounds, room 2)
KnuKonceptz eKs interconnects (subwoofer, RCA, optical, digital coax, s-video, HDMI)
Furniture
Dayton LCD60-TM Tilting TV Wall Mount
Illuminaire main speaker and Plasma TV backlighting PLX318 and PLX318-LB x2
 
I wouldn't be driving either of them with a receiver! The woofer is not the problem - it is the ES panel. The panel is extraordinarily difficult to drive and drops to almost 1 ohm at 20,000Hz. For this, you really need a beefy, stable amplifier. Most of us here use separate power amps.

Driving them with a receiver is asking for trouble. The newer panels like the Vista and Vantage are certainly a lot better than they used to be in terms of ease of drive - and the receiver will probably work as a stopgap, but it won't be long before you're demanding more. What you'll get from the panel (with a receiver) is a harsh and more brittle sound. You won't get that sparkle and insight into the performance that ES panels are famous for. The panel is very revealing and will show up all deficiencies in your anciliaries.

Nice cat and dog by the way - welcome to the forum!
 
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Either of those speakers will sound fine in that size room, and neither will sound anywhere near their best driven by an AV receiver. If you search through the forum, you will find about a thousand posts recommending that you use a separate amp with ML electrostats, rather than an integrated receiver.

If you are determined to use your AV receiver, the Vantage is the better way to go because the woofer amps will take some of the load off of your receiver. But realize that you can't really bi-amp the Vantage (because it is already bi-amped) so you would only use two of your four channels of amplification. And realize that you will never hear what your speakers are truly capable of until you upgrade from the receiver to a decent high-current amplifier.
 
Another issue will be the doorway. If it is an open doorway, without a door to close then you will probably get some less than stellar results from the right speaker as MLs are Dipoles.

There is tons of info on the site to help you through the world of Electrostats, might be worth your while to check out some of the threads on placement, amps versus AVRs, room treatments, etc.
 
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Hello,
While you could definitely use the 5007 to drive the ML's, you absolutely cannot Biamp them. The 5007 is rated for 8 ohm Speakers only when Biamped.

While an outboard amplifier would definitely be the best call, the 5007 has a fairly large Toroidal Transformer for an AVR and a decent amount of Capacitance. However, again, do not Biamp as the Vista/Vantage are 4 Ohm Nominal and go as low as 1 Ohm. Sure fire way for the AVR to go into protection or worse.

While counterintuitive, do not set the Onkyo for 4 Ohms either. When you do, power output is massively reduced. As in it goes from over 100 WPC to under 50 WPC. Just keep it set for 6-8 Ohms and do not Biamp.
Cheers,
JJ
 
I was aware of the power reduction when set to 4 ohms (my KEFs are also 4 ohms, although high sensitivity and a resistive load) but I'd not heard anything about the inability to use the bi-amp mode on a 4 ohm speaker. I know this to be the case for bridged mode, but not bi-amp. I'll hve to look into this. I see no reason for it.

Yeah I'd love to have a nice shiny Krell amp to drive the speakers, too, but after 4 organ transplants, money is tight, and blowing an extra several grand on an amplifier just isn't in the books.


Hello,
While you could definitely use the 5007 to drive the ML's, you absolutely cannot Biamp them. The 5007 is rated for 8 ohm Speakers only when Biamped.

While an outboard amplifier would definitely be the best call, the 5007 has a fairly large Toroidal Transformer for an AVR and a decent amount of Capacitance. However, again, do not Biamp as the Vista/Vantage are 4 Ohm Nominal and go as low as 1 Ohm. Sure fire way for the AVR to go into protection or worse.

While counterintuitive, do not set the Onkyo for 4 Ohms either. When you do, power output is massively reduced. As in it goes from over 100 WPC to under 50 WPC. Just keep it set for 6-8 Ohms and do not Biamp.
Cheers,
JJ
 
Yeah I'd love to have a nice shiny Krell amp to drive the speakers, too, but after 4 organ transplants, money is tight, and blowing an extra several grand on an amplifier just isn't in the books.

Understood. You just need to realize that you will be spending several grand on new speakers and getting maybe 50% to 70% of their performance potential. Martin Logans can sound very harsh in the highs, thin in the mids, and weak or muddy in the bass with inadequate amplification.

On the other hand, they may work fine for your needs with your current receiver. A lot of perceived performance is dependent on source material, volume levels, room acoustics, and user expectations. In the end, if you are unhappy with their sound you can always save up for outboard amplification at a later date.
 
Tight money is something everyone understands these days.

One thought, if you haven't already considered it, you can go on Audiogon and with patience, you can find used great high current amps and even ML speakers for that matter, for about 50% and some times more off of retail.

You can then use a single high current amp to run the MLs and then use the Onkyo as a Pre-amp and also as an amp for the remainder of your channels. Slowly but surely you can upgrade pieces and parts as it is financially comfortable or not, it is up to you. So basically, you could add amps and still use the Onkyo for whatever channels you see fit.

It may be a way to cut the cake with out cutting anything else. Just a suggestion if you haven't already looked at it, if so just ignore it, you will come to know I am nuts anyway.:D
 
Yeah I'd love to have a nice shiny Krell amp to drive the speakers, too, but after 4 organ transplants, money is tight, and blowing an extra several grand on an amplifier just isn't in the books.

Of course! But we really do need to sort this out.......I've seen too many posts on here where people get new MLs only to be highly disappointed with the results when driven by inadequate amplification. In actual fact, you may find your KEFs produce better sound that MLs incorrectly driven by inadequate amps.

So we have a few options:

1: Use the receiver as a stopgap and intend to purchase a new amplifier shortly (it will be sooner than you think)
2: Look on eBay for a second-hand amplifier.
3: Spread the money over amplification and speakers - perhaps look at second-hand MLs as well as amplification.
4: Stick with the KEFs for a bit and wait it out.

Quite frankly, you don't want to waste money. Buying anything high-performance (like MLs) and only realising a fraction of their performance is waste.
 
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OK, then what would be some good brands and models of amplifier to consider, if I'm trying to stay in the three-digit price range, new or used, for teh amp? (2 channel)

I like Krell, but very expensive. I've seen a lot of Adcom units floating around. Sadly the amps I am familiar with are far, far out of my price range (like Pass Labs)

Thoughts on the old Onkyo M504? I love the old Onkyo M series amps, but I didn't know if the amp was fast enough, has enough power, and is just the right fit for something like a pair of Vantage mains.
 
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OK, then what would be some good brands and models of amplifier to consider, if I'm trying to stay in the three-digit price range, new or used, for teh amp? (2 channel)

I like Krell, but very expensive. I've seen a lot of Adcom units floating around. Sadly the amps I am familiar with are far, far out of my price range (like Pass Labs)

Well, yes - there is a trio of amps that are probably the most popular here - they are Krell, Classé and Pass. All are fairly expensive, although you may find some older Krells and Classés in your budget if you look hard and negotiate harder!!

It all depends on personal preference, but there have been some very good models in the past (that should now be well within your budget) from manufacturers such as:
Carver
Sunfire
Creek
Rotel
Adcom
Perreaux
Meridian
Primare
NAD
Myryad

The only two I'd be wary of are Rotel and Adcom - they've had some shockers along with some good ones, but anything will be better than a [shudder] receiver! Good luck.
 
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Hello,
Glass Wolf, I read your post too quickly and had a Brain Fart. You can Biamp with the Vista, but with the Vantages, you cannot biamp them due to them having 200 Watt ICE Amps powering the 8" Driver.

With the Vantage, Spire, and Summit, Martin Logan provides Dual Binding Posts, but only the Upper Posts are active. They did this to allow Owners to use BiWired Speaker Cables previously purchased to use them with these models.

Previous Martin Logan Models could be Biamped or Biwired. However, with the Models listed above it makes no difference.

I would also highly recommend Aragon Amplifiers in your list of Amplifiers. They make super high current amps.
Cheers,
JJ
 
power ranges for these amps, in lieu of actual models #s? What am I looking for, 200WPC?

As much as I hate the idea of using an AVR to amplify the speakers as well, the NR5007, for an AVR, at least has a pretty decent amplifier section. It's probably one of the better amps in a receiver that I've seen. While home audio is just a hobby for me, and I only upgrade every ten or so years with this stuff, I will note that I'm an EE, and an MECP gold certified mobile installer with 20+ years experience in mobile audio, so I do have at least some understanding of this stuff. The specifics on brands just aren't my forte here. The last MLs I auditioned were Odysseys when I was looking at a pair of Ascents maybe ten years ago. I just didn't have the money then, as I noted, I was beginning to deal with the organ transplants and such. Anyway, just noting that I'm not a total idiot.
 
I have Vantages powered by an MA6500 McIntosh integrated amplifier. It is 200WPC and does a very fine job. Had to take it out of the system to get the lights replaced and used a Rotel integrated in the interim and the sound was very lack luster to say the least. You do need some clean stable power to get the best from these speakers. Take a look at McIntosh power. It really makes the MLs shine. And as others said, check Audiogon and aslo Audio Classics. Lots of good used stuff over there. I hope you find something to meet your budget. Audio is fun!
 
power ranges for these amps, in lieu of actual models #s? What am I looking for, 200WPC?

More power is always better, but current is king. In other words, a 100 wpc amp that has a beefy power supply, tons of capacitance, and can double down its wattage output with a halving of impedance and remain stable down to two ohms is going to be a much better choice than an amp that is rated at 200 wpc but has none of those other characteristics.

As much as I hate the idea of using an AVR to amplify the speakers as well, the NR5007, for an AVR, at least has a pretty decent amplifier section. It's probably one of the better amps in a receiver that I've seen.

That may be, but I don't think it is any match for electrostatic speakers. Just looking at the games Onkyo plays on their specs for this amp should tell you that much. It is a nine-channel receiver/amp, but they list the power output with only two channels driven at 8 ohms! Then they list the "dynamic" power (i.e. power output into lower impedance) with one channel driven only! (Who uses only one or two channels on a nine channel receiver? And therefore, why would these specs mean anything?) And even with only one channel driven, this nine-channel amp section still can't manage to double down its wattage output with a halving of impedance, which is a telltale sign that it can't handle the 1 to 2 ohm dips that an ML makes at higher frequencies. And it probably can't remain stable with the capacitative load that electrostats present.

Also, they say the amp puts out 180 wpc at eight ohms with one channel driven, but only 145 wpc when two channels are driven. That's a pretty big drop (20%) for only adding one extra channel on a nine channel amp. Wonder what kind of wpc output you can expect with all nine channels driven? For some reason, they don't mention that number. Wonder why? I'm guessing it is a number much less than 100 wpc though.

I don't mean to rail on your receiver. I am sure it is a fine and capable home theater receiver with appropriate speakers. But I am just trying to point out that it is not really designed for the kind of loads electrostatic speakers present. A high end electrostatic speaker really deserves a high end (high current) amp designed to handle it.

As for amp recommendations, you should spend some time searching through the forum, as this question has been asked and answered many, many times. Also, you could check out the members systems area to see what people are using. If I were you, I would consider looking for a quality used two-channel amp to run the electrostats, and use the receiver to run the rest of the speakers in your home theater setup. The two channel amp could be anywhere from 100 wpc to 400 wpc or more, as long as it is a quality, high current design.
 
power ranges for these amps, in lieu of actual models #s? What am I looking for, 200WPC?

Don't worry about power so much as stability. Oh, and of course sound quality. So listen to the amps. As for stability, look for amps that can double their power output when the impedance halves. eg. 100w at 8 ohms and 200w at four ohms is better than say 300w at 8 ohms and 330w at 4 ohms.
 
Hello,
I want to expand on Aragon's Amplifiers. The original Mondial Designs Models (Palladium, 4004, 2002, 8008ST, 8008BB, 8008X3, and 8008X5) were truly designed to drive any Speaker out there and feature fantastic American build quality.

The 8008BB, available for between 1000-1200 Dollars, is a true Dual Mono Design with dual 1.2 kVA Toroidal Transformers and 140,000 uf of Capacitance. These specs better the vast majority of 5 Channel Amplifiers in respect to power supply and Capacitance. Moreover, these Amplifiers keep their value unbelievably and you can honestly own it for years and get your money back should you decide to sell them.

The fantastic Palladium is virtually a bridged mono 8008BB and really is special.

Here is an overview of Aragon Amplifiers:http://reviews.ebay.com/Classic-Aragon-Amps-A-primer_W0QQugidZ10000000001149810
Here is a review of the 8008BB: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/aragon8008bb.html
Cheers,
JJ
 

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