5.1 setup with ML Source speakers

[keengolfer]

I am trying to put together a decent 5.1 in our new house. Our family room is about 19' by 16.5'. Usage will be 50% music & 50% video. Auditioned a few different speakers (B&W, Definitive, Monitor and Martin Logan) at the nearby Magnolia and found the ML Source (hybrid electrostatic ones) to be the one that both wifey and i are gravitating towards. Wife is after the looks and the i like the sound (especially the clarity and the definition in the sweet spot).

Few things that i would like understand better:-

1. The difference between the sound in the sweet spot vis-a-vis just outside was quite noticeable. Is that what any of you have experienced as well or can that be written off to the way the speakers were placed in the sound room?

2. While reading up on it, came across some opinions that the ML CLS (old ones) also need separate amp to drive them. Is that true for the Source as well? I am going to use an Onkyo 708. will that be enough or should i budget for an amp? I saw a ML webiste video, which seems to suggest that you don't. I am really confused on this point.

3. Any recommendations for matching

a. center speaker - The Magnolia guy recommended a B&W HTM 62 as a center (he said that it matches the warmth of the MLs). What do you think?
b. in-ceiling surround/rear speakers - He suggested that i stay away from SpeakerCraft in-wall surrounds. Any suggestion?
c. sub - i think that a 10 inch sub should do for our room. Which one would you guys recommend?

Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[projectormovielover]

I think the rep is full of you know what ,A different brand of center for martin logans is not going to even remotely have the same sonic signature

ML source (I own them and cherish them) can be had for $670 shipped from amazon so avoid the $999 a pop with tax from a store first of all

I matched my martin logans up with a matinee center channel and I had them hooked up to a .........wait for it ............. onkyo 607 lol .I know many logan users will say this was not a good choice but the sound was awesome . Onkyo is a fabulous receiver to pair with martin logans . There is so much air and transparency from the usually sterile sound processor . I made a mistake and bought a pioneer to go with my logans and the sound isnt as good as my cheapo onkyo

I bought a tube amp and it really opend up my ML source in ways I never thought possible but I lost alot of information from the upper register's that was presant in the onkyo 2 ch stereo mode

Dont worry about the sweet spot being narrow for 2 reasons or 3

First. When you go with martin logans for home theater then you have a center channel opening up and widening the front sound stage

Second . When you do critical listening then usually its just yourself ,acold beer and your favorite stash of music

Third . Martin logans sound awesome awesome awesome no matter what. I have had my geusts marvel at the looks and the sound on and off axis . ML is in my opinion the most accurate . Be glad that you can own a set for peanuts in comparison to what the senior members on this site had to pay just to get a listen

 

[jojomtn]

I agree with projectormovielover. Try audio advisor and audiogon as well. Theres alot out there better than worst buy. Then again their 3 yrs no interest may appeal to many. Myself included.

 

[SteveInNC]

re: sweet spot

ML panels are a bit beamy, but it's also almost always the case that places like Magnolia have the speakers set up wrong. Unlike box speakers, you do not aim them at your sitting position. Their curved panel gives them some horizontal dispersion, so to cover more than one seating position, they should be aimed outside of the center point. The classic way to do this is to aim a small flashlight at the panels from the center seating position, then toe them out such that the beam of light hits on the inner third of the panel. It will usually form an obvious vertical bar of light.

They will drop off sonically if you stand up since they don't really produce much sound above the top and bottom edges of the panels. Box speakers tend to radiate in a cone from their center point, whereas panels tend to radiate more in a cylindrical section from their center point. The reflections off of the wall behind the speakers will fill in some vertically too.

 

[keengolfer]

Guys

Thanks for your valuable inputs. Its really clear as to how much you guys cherish the Martin Logan sound quality. Looking forward to joining your ranks soon. I just have a couple of more questions.

1. Center Channel - Given my budget right now and your suggestions that i stay within the ML family, i am thinking of going with the MartinLogan Encore TF Center Channel. Its available for $200. What do you guys think?

2. For the surrounds, will a pair of Polk RC80i do the job (you know, match timber wise etc)? Or should i plan on investing in a pair of ML Helos 20s?

3. For the subwoofer, have any of you matched a Hsu STF 2 with the Sources? Any other suggested subs?

Thanks a lot for your time.

 

[projectormovielover]

Your sub will be fine but the rest of your choices will spoil the martin logan sound ,especialy the polks

I tryed some polks that I had laying around and the sound was not terrible but it kinda sucked

The encore is sweet for $200 but your going to end up with buying a electrostat center so blowing $200 is gona take you longer to get there

If you must or your using a store credit card then go for the folded motion tweeter series as you can always pair it with the new up and coming electromtion sooner or later

Another option is look for a martin logan cinema center channel ,its part of the electrostatic family and can easily be had for around $600 on the market like ebay and audiogon

If funds are limited or your not super into HT you can pick up a martin logan FRESCO.. this is the best budgert choice for you because it has the electromagnetic midrange and tweeter. 4 little 3.5 inch magnets push and pull to give you the closest match to the electrostats outa all the non electrostat family

The fresco used to retail for $1000 a speaker but if you go to ebay youl find one there right now for $400 . If you wana go even cheaper then buy a vignette for $200 used or $280 brand new on ebay. This is similar to the FRESCO but it does not have the array of 4 3.5 magnets and only has one 3.5 magnetic tweeter

 

[SteveInNC]

I'd even go so far as to say skip the center for the time being until you can get something that you want. For "5".1, phantom centers work pretty well. The sub will make a bigger difference in the overall sound. If you're mainly interested in 5.1 for HT, I don't have a problem with cheaper, non-Logan surrounds because they generally are only used for effects. Others will disagree . For 5.1 music, matching the mains is more important.

 

[keengolfer]

Ordered and eagerly waiting

Guys

Thanks a ton for your expert advice. I have finally ordered a pair of ML Sources, a Matinee as a center, pair of Helos20 as surround and a Velodyne sub. Eagerly waiting for the stuff to be delivered. Thanks again for all your help.

 

[GaryG]

Guys

Thanks a ton for your expert advice. I have finally ordered a pair of ML Sources, a Matinee as a center, pair of Helos20 as surround and a Velodyne sub. Eagerly waiting for the stuff to be delivered. Thanks again for all your help.

Congrats on your purchase. I believe your final purchase was much, much better than your earliest conciderations. You have a good blend for both music and movies.

Enjoy.
Gary

 

[F=ma]

keengolfer, first of all welcome to the forum! Be careful here...this forum can quickly make you want to upgrade what you have.

I wanted to comment about your question about the off-center sound quality. It is my opinion that the stereo imaging of Martin Logan electrostats, when set up correctly, is so good it very quickly spoils a person so that anything not in the sweet spot just doesn't compare.

In other words, the sound quality is phenomenal everywhere, but so much so in the sweet spot that being outside it begins to not sound "acceptable".

It's a tough cross to bear.

Congratulations on your purchase.

Regarding your Receiver question, check out my post (#16) in this thread. I have a pair of Vantages (which have a built in amp for the woofer to help reduce the power demand from the receiver), and a motif center. My "135 watts/channel" wasn't adequate in a 5.1 setup.

I love how Onkyo lists the 708's rear surround channels rated at "110 watts/channel, two-channels driven". When would the surrounds be the only two channels driven?

From my experience, I'd lean toward agreeing somewhat with your Magnolia salesperson. You might do okay with an all in one receiver, or you might quickly find yourself spending more money on external amps. If I had it to do over again, I'd have skipped the all in one receiver I think...unless it was something like a Sunfire Cinema Grand.

My Onkyo/ML System sounds great now, but that required adding $1200 worth of external amplifiers. I wish I'd listened to those who advise against all in one receivers to power ML home theater systems. In my defense, I hadn't planned to use an electrostat for the center channel...I think that's what really brought the Onkyo's limited power to the forefront.

 

[roberto]

Guys

Thanks a ton for your expert advice. I have finally ordered a pair of ML Sources, a Matinee as a center, pair of Helos20 as surround and a Velodyne sub. Eagerly waiting for the stuff to be delivered. Thanks again for all your help.

Hola... the Helos 20 is a stereo speaker... you need Helos 10 or the Helos 100. Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[keengolfer]

Speakers are here!

Folks

First of all, thanks for the warm welcome and all the help through the "hunt". The speakers are finally here!!. Now starts the setup process. This evening, i hooked up the Sources and the Velodyne sub to the Onkyo 808 (yeah.. i upgraded to the 808 at the last minute ) and listened to some CDs. Sounds really good but still not GREAT. What is the ideal low pass and high pass crossover settings for the Sub with the Sources? Also, i have connected the LFE In of the sub to the Subwoofer out of the Receiver with a single RCA cable. Is that OK? Any other suggestions?

Roberto - yes, i understand that the Helos 20 are stereo surrounds. Given that my family room (where i have the setup) flow into an open kitchen and the surrounds will be in the ceiling between kitchen and the family room, i thought that the Stereo mode will be able to reproduce left and right side and rear surround channels, thus giving me a virtual 7.1 configuration. Is that a fair assumption? Or am i better off running the Helos20 in a mono mode?

 

[roberto]

Folks

First of all, thanks for the warm welcome and all the help through the "hunt". The speakers are finally here!!. Now starts the setup process. This evening, i hooked up the Sources and the Velodyne sub to the Onkyo 808 (yeah.. i upgraded to the 808 at the last minute ) and listened to some CDs. Sounds really good but still not GREAT. What is the ideal low pass and high pass crossover settings for the Sub with the Sources? Also, i have connected the LFE In of the sub to the Subwoofer out of the Receiver with a single RCA cable. Is that OK? Any other suggestions?

Roberto - yes, i understand that the Helos 20 are stereo surrounds. Given that my family room (where i have the setup) flow into an open kitchen and the surrounds will be in the ceiling between kitchen and the family room, i thought that the Stereo mode will be able to reproduce left and right side and rear surround channels, thus giving me a virtual 7.1 configuration. Is that a fair assumption? Or am i better off running the Helos20 in a mono mode?

Hola, well basically the 7.1 channels, the signal is different in timing. You could try to listen carefully, and listen for not to make a sorround signal mess. The added 2 channels for back surround usually is a mono signal. the digital processor at your receiver is the one that makes this. Only a few recordings, and has to be blu ray, comes with 7.1 info. Listen first with 5.1 with the back surround speakers at the receiver in the settings saying none. Then try again with them on. Also my understanding, the surround back are signal delayed or perhaps if you have an airplane coming from the back the effect is going to take longer, because first goes to back, then the signal goes to the rears, then to front...I do not know...perhaps you might have something nice...happy listening,
Roberto.