Vinyl, SACD and DVD-A

[VanDaRo]

Lately I've been I have been considering upgrading my CD player. Not that the old one is bad -- in fact it's quite good sounding, well-reviewed at the time of its' release, and continues to operate just fine despite it being ten years old. So recently I borrowed a Rotel RCD-1072 (in black - a real looker of a machine !) and tested it out for many an hour. I spun CDs of every imaginable ilk, including some with HDCD encoding and all was well. But I didn't hear $700 worth of improvement. A hundred bucks - sure. Two hundred - iffy. Two fifty - fuggedaboudit.

What I really wanted was for that affordable player to blow me away. But it didn't. Don't get me wrong though... it's a great machine if you can deal with the small buttons and worth every nickel if your current player bites the dust. But I suppose that I'll have to look higher up the food chain for my next player if I want to reach the next level.

Which brings me to SACD and DVD-A. I have nothing that plays these formats and they are extremely rare. So I haven't had the chance to hear one of these. Combine that rareness with the same sinking feeling that I got with HD-DVD, and maybe those formats aren't long for this world -- the "LaserDisc" of the optical audio storage ? Is SACD or DVD-A worth the investment ? Speak up if you own one of these as I'm dying to know about the real value of these formats.

I sold my old Linn LP12 rig and phono stage in 1996 because I needed to drum up money real quick to support my family during my post-Navy unemployment. I miss it terribly to this day. There are 3 heavy-a$$ boxes in the back of my closet that contain about 250 LPs. As luck would have it, I know a few audiophiles and they all have turntables and the sound is (mostly) magnificent.

So now I'm jonesing for some good ol' fashioned analog. But some would say let the old format go, and instead spend your upgrade dollars on the latest technology (ie. state of the art CD player, SACD, or DVD-A). The truth is that for around $2500 I could scoop up a new VPI Scout or equivalent Rega, Pro-Ject, or Clearaudio and recapture my vinyl-filled youth. Or I could spend that upgrade-itus cash on the latest digital or just sit on it and save for a while longer...

What would you do ???

~VDR

 

[slowGEEZR]

I'm a vinyl guy, so of course, I'd say get the VPI. If you don't, why are you keeping the records?

 

[benleeys]

Guess I'm also in this situation right now. However, instead of spending $kilos on a new hi-end player, I have been reading up on media servers and figure I'll be heading in the direction of a dedicated PC storage plus an excellent D/A like the Benchmark or an Aqvox, both of which have USB connections. With lossless compression files, the overwhelming opinion is that, for the price of less than $3k, one can achieve something that would cost in excess of $10k for a reference player. (Of course, if one has deep pockets, one can simply acquire a Sooloos or a QSonix, both of which come with fantastic proprietory interface softwares.)

Sound aside, there's a bit of work in ripping your CD collection into the PC, but you benefit hugely from the convenience of not having to mess around with disks and plastic boxes in the future. Added to that, one can download CD quality files from the huge selection at, say, MusicGiants for a fraction of the price of the actual CD.

 

[User211]

Whilst SACD blows CD away, at least on my player (MF Tri-Vista), there isn't enough material to make it worthwhile. A REAL shame, and I blame the hi-fi mags, at least in this country (Martin Colloms - you are guilty! and Barry Fox, all you did was take the p*ss), to have played a bit of a part in it.

Tip: keep an eye on Blu-Ray audio...
_______________________________

 

[DTB300]

Whilst SACD blows CD away, at least on my player (MF Tri-Vista), there isn't enough material to make it worthwhile.

There are numerous releases of SACD every month - but - they are primarily Classical music. Jazz releases seem to be picking up lately, but again not like Classical. For Pop, rock, most (not all) of the SACD releases are pretty poor sounding IMO.

 

[David Matz]

In my opinion, you have to look at the practical realities. You already have a lot of vinyl, so if you have the space and the $, go for it. My limited understanding of the engineering is that vinyl has a favorable euphonic distortion by its nature that makes is sound good.

The CD format is here, and it is not going away for a while. Having heard many CD players at different price points, it takes a $3K original priced cd player (under $2K used) to do the format justice and to convey humanness and emotion. The players in the $1K range are pretty good, but sound like cheap robots if you listen to a $3K player right after words.

As mentioned, the digital format has limitations. Many of those limitations may be overcome if Blue Ray can become the digital format, as it makes available much more information. It will then take excellent engineering to make it sound good and bring the emotion to the music. It may take an additional 3-7 years for the prices to drop out of the stratosphere.

Another reality to deal with is the recordings. Pop/ rock will suck as the target audience is the ipod. There is good classical and jazz stuff.

 

[DTB300]

The CD format is here, and it is not going away for a while. Having heard many CD players at different price points, it takes a $3K original priced cd player (under $2K used) to do the format justice and to convey humanness and emotion. The players in the $1K range are pretty good, but sound like cheap robots if you listen to a $3K player right after words.

And the $3k (total cost) modified players will sound as good or better than stock players costing 2-4 times as much.

In regards to source format, there should not be a problem on what your decided as YOUR desired format. If you really like Vinyl, then listen to vinyl. If it is CD/SACD/DVD-A, then listen to CD/SACD/DVD-A, etc. etc.

But one has to remember to setup their rig to show the strengths of your desired format. More times than not, one person has a really tweaked out setup for one format, then complains the other format does not sound as good, yet has done nothing in comparison to their preferred format.

Regardless of what format you choose, sit back and enjoy your music and forget the format wars/discussions.

 

[slowGEEZR]

And the $3k (total cost) modified players will sound as good or better than stock players costing 2-4 times as much.

In regards to source format, there should not be a problem on what your decided as YOUR desired format. If you really like Vinyl, then listen to vinyl. If it is CD/SACD/DVD-A, then listen to CD/SACD/DVD-A, etc. etc.

But one has to remember to setup their rig to show the strengths of your desired format. More times than not, one person has a really tweaked out setup for one format, then complains the other format does not sound as good, yet has done nothing in comparison to their preferred format.

Regardless of what format you choose, sit back and enjoy your music and forget the format wars/discussions.

Very interesting and valid comment. It's amazing that I tend to agree with almost everything that you have to say when it comes to audio. I want to point out that it may be a little deceiving at first appearance whether one has a more tweaked analog vs. digital source, though wide disparity is easy to see. Someone who spends $250 for a turntable, $150 for a phono amp and $13,000 for a CD player and says the CD is the superior format is not being fair! You can find the same relationship favoring analogue, of course. Then there are the systems which, at first glance, appear more tweeked for one over the other, but are they really? For instance, my analog source (including cartridge) cost almost twice what my digital source cost and that doesn't include the phono amp (which I'm not sure should be figured in, as it is a necessary device to even be able to listen to vinyl, though it does have terrific impact on the sound). So, it would look like I'm not comparing appropriately. But, everything is relative. For instance, I'm running the least expensive VPI turntable, with a lower middle end cartridge ($800 retail). The Scout reportedly gets about 80% (however that is subjectively decided) of what their top tier table provides. I've listened to many CD players, including Meridian and dcs and modified and have subjectively concluded, based on what I've heard, that my CD source gets at least 80% or their sound.

The trouble with comparing analog and digital, to me, is that most of it comes down to the mastering and production of the media. Which media do you find that has the best (subjective) sound to you? It varies for me and for most vinyl lovers, I believe. For instance, I have five media versions of Santana's Abraxis, two CDs (one is mofi, the other Sony gold), SACD, old old vinyl and new vinyl. I rank them in order of quality sound, best to worst- new vinyl, CD (MoFi), SACD, CD (Sony gold), old vinyl original Columbia. Note that the new vinyl and the best sounding (to me) CD are both remastered by MoFi. The SACD is hyper detailed, but not natural sounding to me, with too much emphasis on the wrong sounds. I blame this on the mastering, not the media. (Aside - I have found this on many rock SACDs, though most of my jazz SACDs sound incredible.) Back to the ranking... the Sony gold remasterd CD is just too bright. Sony utilized a lot of equalization on their gold masters series, they said in order to "revitalize" the old recordings. They were more successful on some of the other titles, such as Janis Joplin's "Pearl", but still not great - but I digress. Last in quality, to me, is my original Columbia vinyl. It sounds a little lifeless and has plenty of ticks, due to scratches. It has been played on old, inferior equipment and may have been played with a damaged stylus. I've had it for 30+ years - damn, I'm old. Since I buy mostly new, high quality vinyl, I've been lucky with the sound quality. Every now and then I get a new record that sounds like shit, even though I like the music. But, it can easily be traced to the mastering. I no longer buy old rock music via CDs, unless it has been remastered, as the normal CDs are usually poor sounding. Alright, I'm rambling, time for some coffee.

 

[DTB300]

I want to point out that it may be a little deceiving at first appearance whether one has a more tweaked analog vs. digital source, though wide disparity is easy to see. Someone who spends $250 for a turntable, $150 for a phono amp and $13,000 for a CD player and says the CD is the superior format is not being fair! You can find the same relationship favoring analogue, of course.

Exactly. And that is usually the way comments go with just a blatant, I like this format better as my "X" smokes "Y" - but yet they fail to state everything they have done to make "X" sound great over "Y".

The trouble with comparing analog and digital, to me, is that most of it comes down to the mastering and production of the media. Which media do you find that has the best (subjective) sound to you?

Yes I agree with you here, and to answer your question - which has the best sound? BOTH!!!! Both can sound good and both can sound bad. I have heard some very high end setups of both, with both sounding excellent and both sounding very uninspiring.

I no longer buy old rock music via CDs, unless it has been remastered, as the normal CDs are usually poor sounding. Alright, I'm rambling, time for some coffee.

Yeah, even some of the remastered ones still are not very good sounding, but there are some which have made a significant improvement over the original release.

 

[tonepub]

Here's my suggestion:

Rega P3-24 with PS-TTU power supply, about 1200 bucks
Groovetracer subplatter upgrade for P3, 179
Lehman black cube phono pre, about 700 (can be upgraded to SE Model later)
Dynavector 17D3 phono cartridge, about 800

Assuming you need a cart and phono pre...

easy, no fuss no muss. you should be setup in 20 min!

 

[FOUNTAIN]

If you go the vinyl route I believe the suggestion that tonepub gave is a very good one. While I'm more of a VPI guy the rega p3-24 with the DV 17D3 would make an excellent combo. I'm not familiar with the phone pre that he suggested so I would suggest the Dynavector P-75 in PE mode. I have the 17D3 and it sounds fantastic to my ears with that phono pre. If you decide to spend more on the table I believe you should give VPI a good listen and see if it meets your standards. They make a very good table at a good price point. But the Rega is more of a plug and play, and tonepub is correct in stating that it will have you up and playing in about 20 minutes (once the cart is installed). Either way I believe you would be very pleased with the results.

If you decide to go the digital route then I would suggest the Ayre cx-7e if SACD and DVD-A was not a neccessity. On the used market they go for $1800-$2000 and does a great job in my opinion.

Concerning which sounds better, cd or vinyl, I prefer my scoutmaster to my Ayre. But that is me, your tastes may be different. Since you do have so many records already it may be time to invest in your analog front end and do your digital front end at a later time. Have fun!!

Glen

 

[twich54]

Lately I've been I have been considering upgrading my CD player. Not that the old one is bad -- in fact it's quite good sounding

So now I'm jonesing for some good ol' fashioned analog.

What would you do ???

~VDR

Van, "what would I do" ? well....for me I beleive both formats can co-exist quite well. So since your "jonesing" for analog, tonepub and others have made very valid suugestions. There is so much nice stuff out there today,as you can tell by my set-up I like the VPI sound.

Once you have recovered from your analog exspense and the wallet is "full again" then you can upgrade your "quite good sounding" cdp !

While I am more than happy with my Cary 303/300, Dan's (DTB300) advise of looking at the well touted "Mod Sector" is definetly something I would consider.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Quick question for you all that do digital and analogue on the same system.

I haven't had a vinyl playback system for quite some years but, when I did, I found that I had to make minor adjustments to the speaker system location (had Acoustat 1 + 1's and the CLS 2A's at the time) to hear the optimal for each media.

Has anyone found this to be true or has anyone bothered to experiment?

GG

 

[twich54]

Evening Gordon, I for one have not tried to experiment with different speaker positioning......so....I don't know ??? !!

FWIW, I'm quite pleased with where things are

 

[jfm]

Gordon,

There was a point where I wanted to do this. My analog rig having a wider/deeper soundstage, but less bass.

But I decided it's not worth the bother.

Cheers.