DAC question

[venkat]

From my recent learning it is clear to me that Analog (turn table) gives the best audio quality.

But it is not clear what would be the best way to get most of digital format (CD, HD audio, SACD etc etc) can I take it for granted that the digital output on my player will give me the best audio quality?

Are there any cases the analog output from my player will give a better audio than the digital one (note I am playing only CD...)

thanks

Venkat

 

[risabet]

Depends, what CD player do you have? In my case with a Denon 2910, the external DAC is head and shoulders above the built-in analog output stage. Keep in mind that the hi-res digital formats are limited to the analog outputs only (no digital copies that way)so no SACD or DVD-A w/ digital output.

 

[TomDac]

Like Risabet said, it all depends on the DACs that you'll be using as some are definitely better than others... Somewhere along the line, the signal has to be converted to analog.

Use analog cables (regular RCA cables) out of your CD player and the DAC inside the CD player will be doing the conversion to analog for you.

Use an optical out of your CD player and the CD player will NOT convert the signal... it will be converted by your receiver/preamp/processor.

Do some A/B comparisons and see which DAC sounds better to your ears. I did this when I first got my Squeezebox and found that the DAC inside the SB sounded better than the DAC in my Denon receiver, so I'm using RCA cables to send the signal from the SB to the receiver.

 

[sleepysurf]

I am using a Benchmark DAC-1 (a couple years old) for both my Squeezebox and Oppo CD player. IMHO, it's better than the built-in DAC of either unit. Outboard DAC's come in numerous flavors... SS, tubed, oversampling vs. non-oversampling, etc. Like everything else in audio, try to demo one before buying.

 

[JonFo]

From my recent learning it is clear to me that Analog (turn table) gives the best audio quality.

Hum, beg to differ, there is tons of objective data that will show this is not the case. But then, this has become a religous thing, sort of on the order of tubes vs. solid state amplifaction.
Suffice it to say, I retired my LP colletion almost two decades ago.

But it is not clear what would be the best way to get most of digital format (CD, HD audio, SACD etc etc) can I take it for granted that the digital output on my player will give me the best audio quality?

Are there any cases the analog output from my player will give a better audio than the digital one (note I am playing only CD...)

thanks

Venkat

I can possibly help here, as the resident digital-head, I've strived to get the most accurate representations of what's on the discs for a long time (hum, same two decades I think ).

In my quest for the most pristine Digital playback of CD/SACD/DVD-A has led me to the following:

For CD's - the best form of reproduction is to rip them using EAC to a file server as WAV's (or FLAC 16/44.1). Then use as high a quality network playback device as you can get.

For stand-alones, that would be something like the Squeezebox Transporter.

But what goes one better is the new Denon uber-preamp the AVP-A1HD.
In this model, the processor itself does the playback and decoding of the streams, applying input buffering of the streams, and most importantly synchronizing its digital data feed to the same master clocks as the processing and D/A inside for absolutely jitter-free playback.

To handle SACD and DVD-A multichannel, the best answer is a Denon DVD-2930ci linked to the AVP-A1 via DenonLink3, a proprietary digital interconnect that guarantees time synchronization for all audio streams, including a multichannel DSD stream.
The AVP even does native SACD DSD decoding, and has several “pure” modes that knock out all DSP processing to give the most ‘untouched’ yet timing-accurate DSD playback through a pre-pro.

I’ve heard many an SACD / DVD-A player’s analog outs, and nothing comes close to what a DenonLink lashup can do.

BTW- this is from firsthand experience with the above gear.

 

[MiTT]

Hum, beg to differ, there is tons of objective data that will show this is not the case. But then, this has become a religous thing, sort of on the order of tubes vs. solid state amplifaction.
Suffice it to say, I retired my LP colletion almost two decades ago.

Careful Jon; as you well know objective data can be manipulated to tell whatever story the person presenting it may wish to tell.
...3....2...1...:devil:

Most (if not all) of the folks who review audio equipment for a living would argue that analog is still the benchmark that digital is measured against. I'd have to ask how good an analog rig you might have had those 20 years ago, because just like digital, analog gear continues to evolve and get better and better. Sales of vinyl software and hardware both continue to climb as more and more people open their minds and ears to take a good listen. Hell, if current trends continue we may actually see vinyl sales exceed those of the CD in the next few years (both sad to say fall far behind the most popular method of obtaining music these days - the download). I believe that the gap is closing between top notch digital and analog all the time, but I've got a lot of emperical research and two good ears that tell me that at least in my system, in my room, on most (but admitedly not all) material - analog still wins the day for overall musicality.

Now, back to the original posters question. I would agree with several here that it depends on which CD player or which DAC you're asking about. My Esoteric player is an excellent redbook machine using the internal DAC's and filters. My old Anthem CD-1 had a decent built in DAC including the Pacific Microsonics filter for HDCD, however, it was retired for use as a transport only after I picked up my Dodson Audio DAC. The Dodson easily trounced the Anthem for both Redbook and HDCD, and I still use if for HDCD, however the Esoteric's internal DAC's sound better on all other material.

One thing you'll have to consider when talking about an external DAC is that unless you are looking at a proprietary connection system such as the DenonLink Jon has in his setup or an I2S (I think that was what it was called) like Sonic Frontiers used to use, or the Wadia or Accuphase solutions, you may be wrestling with the introduction of jitter.

The bottom line is that there are MANY resonable solutions out there both new and used that you should try in the context of your own setup because only then will you discover if there is a synergy in the context of your overall system.

Hey Jon, if the vinyl you once had is merely retired rather than disposed of I'd be happy to take some of it off your hands. Let me know what you have and I'll give you a fair price for it.

 

[JonFo]

Hi Tim, I got rid of the discs a few years ago. I still held on to several albums just for the covers, which reminds me, I still need to mount them.


I know the LP thing is a touchy subject, so all I'll add is a link to a highly scientific discussion of the properties of the LP reproduction system:
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/iandm/part12/page2.html

Note, I'm not saying one can't get decent sound from LP's but qualifying it as 'Best' is a stretch IMHO.

My definition of 'Best' (in 2008) is MLP encoded WAV's on DVD-A or BluRay Dolby TrueHD, or SACD delivered in a synched digital link to a pre-pro like the AVP.

 

[amey01]

My definition of 'Best' (in 2008) is MLP encoded WAV's on DVD-A or BluRay Dolby TrueHD, or SACD delivered in a synched digital link to a pre-pro like the AVP.

Agreed - sure, CD was flawed (but I do think budget CD players still outperformed budget turntables!). SACD changed that and high sample rate/bit depth PCM really surpassed all other formats. My opinion only. Sorry, but I don't find surface noise, clicks, pops, etc. has any part in a "hi-fi" system.

Don't get me wrong, some of the best recordings I've heard are analogue, but they've been on high-speed tape, NOT vinyl!

 

[MiTT]

Sorry, but I don't find surface noise, clicks, pops, etc. has any part in a "hi-fi" system.

Amey, the vast majority of my vinyl doesn't have any such issue. I have just as many CD's that don't track properly as I do vinyl that has problems.

Jon, you sir are always such a gentleman, I knew this when I met you last year.

Good to know that we can participate in a forum where we can disagree, but never loose respect and dignity. I only wish we all lived closer together so that we could settle this system to system by listening to each and enjoying some good music.

For what it's worth, I am starting to come around on the whole "no transport" thing. I've recently heard a few systems based around true high end music servers and I am frankly startled at how good they sound on certain types of music, especially when reading from solid state memory as opposed to even the hard disc. This very well could be the future of recorded music.

I'll still practice my "religion" though, and always offer both of you an open invitaction to come to church.

 

[venkat]

Keep in mind that the hi-res digital formats are limited to the analog outputs only (no digital copies that way)so no SACD or DVD-A w/ digital output.

Could you clarify please. Does that mean that I will not get any signal output at the optical channel on my player when running SACD or DVD-A ?

 

[benleeys]

..... Keep in mind that the hi-res digital formats are limited to the analog outputs only (no digital copies that way)so no SACD or DVD-A w/ digital output.

Besides digital connections like Denon Link, Firewire (IEEE1394) is also capable of passing hi-res digital formats to external DACs.

 

[User211]

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh

I just wrote an EXCELLENT post that took AGES and LOST THE LOT cos of the &^$&%^)(* LOGIN TIMEOUT!!!

Is there anyone around to KILL???

 

[risabet]

Besides digital connections like Denon Link, Firewire (IEEE1394) is also capable of passing hi-res digital formats to external DACs.

Indeed, I meant that the standard coax and toslink outputs are rendered dead by both the SACD and DVD-A standard. As Benleeys wrote proprietary outputs like D-Link, Firewire will output a hi-res signal.