Can traps hurt acoustics?

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Rich, following your logic, how do you propose those who own omni-directional speakers like MBL and German Physik treat their rooms? By shrouding the front 1/2 in absorption?

Also, all recordings are a facsimile of the actual event and most instruments are not producing sound uni-directionally. They radiate at least 180 degrees, some 360. Listen to a live band or better yet an orchestra and you'll hear how all recordings are far from sounding like true live music.
 
Rich, following your logic, how do you propose those who own omni-directional speakers like MBL and German Physik treat their rooms? By shrouding the front 1/2 in absorption?

I propose they experiment and find what sounds best to them in their system and room. We all have different ears, rooms, and psychological expectations of what music should sound like, so you really have to do what works for you. As I said, I prefer to get as accurate a rendition of the recording as possible.

I do seem to recall (and perhaps another member that was there can chime in on this) that when I heard the MBL setup at RMAF a few years ago, they had the entire front wall behind the speakers covered in drapes. This was in a very large room too. So it isn't too far out of the realm of possibility to consider that Omnis may benefit from front wall absorption in certain situations.

Also, all recordings are a facsimile of the actual event and most instruments are not producing sound uni-directionally. They radiate at least 180 degrees, some 360. Listen to a live band or better yet an orchestra and you'll hear how all recordings are far from sounding like true live music.

Yes, all recordings are nothing like live music no matter how much we want to try to make them seem otherwise. We have debated this topic much on this forum. Even with live orchestra, the soundstage and imaging is very different depending on where you sit (in front you may have pinpoint imaging and huge soundstage width, but little depth; in the rear of the hall you may get very diffuse imaging and a smaller soundstage width but lots of depth). I never said I was trying to replicate true live music (as ultimately I think that's a pipe dream and not even necessarily desirable as lots of live music sounds like crap for various reasons). What I said was that I am trying to replicate the sound of the recording as the recording engineer intended. Not true to life, but true to the source.

This is an important point. Stereo imaging and sound staging are an illusion, created by the recording engineer using various recording and mixing techniques. Some recordings have a great soundstage, with lots of width and depth and pinpoint imaging, and some don't. But all of this is achieved through the magic of the stereo mix created by the engineer.

Every speaker is a compromise. All have their good points and their limitations. But lets be clear on this: The front wave of an ML is the musical signal. It contains all of the musical information and spatial cues in the mix. If you listen to only that, in an otherwise great system and room, you will hear the imaging and soundstage width and depth that the recording engineer baked into the mix.

The rear wave of an ML is a by-product of the speaker design. It contains all the same information (out of phase), which is then reflected off the front and side walls and returns to the listener after the original signal. If the speakers are properly positioned, the brain perceives these later sound waves as a reverberation which creates a sense of depth and spaciousness (what a lot of people call the "ambiance" of ML speakers). This was not included in the mix or ever considered by the engineer (he doesn't know what kind of speakers you are using). It is simply an anomaly of the type of speaker and how it interacts with the acoustics of your room (not much different than a bass mode in that respect).

It also really isn't much different than the DSP programs in my old Yamaha receiver that would add reverb to the signal to mimic certain settings, such as a concert hall, a stadium, or a church. It can sound really cool. I used to put on a gregorian chant cd and put it on the cathedral DSP setting, and wow did it sound cool. On a solo acoustic performance, not so much. But the point is that it is fake. It is added. It is not part of the intended sound of the recording.

If it sounds good to you on your speakers in your room, that's great. I recommend to anyone that they go with what they like. But if you think the exaggerated sense of depth you hear is an accurate rendition of the recording, you are fooling yourself. If you want proof of that, play a mono recording on your system. I expect you will still get some of the spatial cues of depth and spaciousness (not as much as from a stereo recording, obviously). But you will get some, and you shouldn't get any in a mono recording. You get some because it is a byproduct of your speaker setup and not really an accurate rendition of the recording mix.

By absorbing the back wave and listening only to the front wave, you hear the recording exactly as it was intended, with all the attendant spatial cues. That is what I get in my system. The whole point of this long explanation is just to emphasize that absorption of the back wave of ML speakers is preferable for lots of people in all kinds of situations and doesn't really pose any downsides other than the loss of a false sense of ambiance.

My apologies to the O.P. for completely derailing the thread, but I have thoroughly enjoyed having the discussion with you sb6. Hopefully someone will get something out of reading it. Happy Thanksgiving!!!
 
I was at RMAF 2013 and heard the MBL Corona's (see pic attached). The front wall was bare except for the usual plant behind each speaker. They sounded very good capitalizing on their ability to create a beautiful 3D sound stage. No need to block the back 180 degrees; in fact that's part of the magic. As Jonathan Valin commented when reviewing the MBL 101-Xtreme's, "Sound the way a theatrical play looks—no ersatz third dimension, but actual people on an actual stage right there in front of you (albeit reduced in size)."

That's similar to what you are missing by masking the back wave in your setup, plus you likely have a bit of boomy bass with speakers ~2' from the side walls. I highly encourage you to pull them away 6"+ from the side walls.

In any case, to each his own. Happy Thanksgiving!
 

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plus you likely have a bit of boomy bass with speakers ~2' from the side walls. I highly encourage you to pull them away 6"+ from the side walls.

I just went and measured to be sure, as my previous comment was off the top of my head. They are 3' from the front wall and actually 2.5' from the side walls. I have bass traps in all the tricorners in the room and in all of the wall-wall corners. My bass is clean and tight with no significant issues. And I really don't miss the false sense of ambiance created by the back wave. I do, however, enjoy the increased clarity and pinpoint imaging that I get from absorbing it.
 
My last response was short, as I didn't read your complete post, only what came across in the auto-email response. Allow me to reply (for the last time):

"Stereo imaging and sound staging are an illusion, created by the recording engineer using various recording and mixing techniques. Some recordings have a great soundstage, with lots of width and depth and pinpoint imaging, and some don't. But all of this is achieved through the magic of the stereo mix created by the engineer. "

Unless spot/close miking, there is little magic or illusion. Mostly what is employed if at all is panning and phasing, the latter less often used. For closest to "life like" see Chesky's binaural method of recording.

"The front wave of an ML is the musical signal. It contains all of the musical information and spatial cues in the mix. If you listen to only that, in an otherwise great system and room, you will hear the imaging and soundstage width and depth that the recording engineer baked into the mix."

Devil's advocate begs me to ask - What if the studio used dipoles for playback/mixing? For example, Egglestons are used in recording studios. Are monopoles then not accurately depicting the engineer's representation?

"It also really isn't much different than the DSP programs in my old Yamaha receiver that would add reverb to the signal to mimic certain settings, such as a concert hall, a stadium, or a church."

I beg to differ. You are comparing inseminating artificial delay to a signal and injecting it into the signal path while the original signal is played back from the same source vs a dipole 180 degree accurate and non-artificial/injected wave. At a high level, they seem the same, but not by a long shot.

"The whole point of this long explanation is just to emphasize that absorption of the back wave of ML speakers is preferable for lots of people in all kinds of situations and doesn't really pose any downsides other than the loss of a false sense of ambiance."

And here is where we differ. MBL, German Physik, Eggleston, Carver, Legacy and any open baffle design would disagree with this statement. And I wager any ML owner with a med-large room who has experimented thoroughly with absorption, diffusion or a bare front wall would lean away from your premise.

What I will agree with is - if you have a small room, absorption is an easy, less technical and less expensive way to control reflections. I think we both agree on that note. :D

As I said earlier, if you enjoy your setup, that's all that matters in the end, and I'm sure your setup sounds great.

I apologize to the creator of this thread for veering off topic.

Again, Happy Thanksgiving to all!
 
Hi Rich, my room set up is then similar to yours, but I put GIK's entry level bass traps (for minimum absorption) but which have built in diffusors behind the Summits. I immediately did not like the sound, lost imaging, so took them off, and now have bare walls. I am going to try pure diffusors, no absorption
 
Bonzo, you might also want to try combo panels like RPG BADs or Kinetics Noise TADs which combine absorption and diffusion if pure diffusion does not sound appropriate.
 
Hi my pads combined the two, but it made the sound duller and I lost imaging, which I guess was more because of the absorption part. I will try pure diffusion behind the panels now
 
Hi my pads combined the two, but it made the sound duller and I lost imaging, which I guess was more because of the absorption part. I will try pure diffusion behind the panels now

I would guess you lost imaging due to the diffusion, not the absorption. Unless your room is really large, there is not enough distance for diffusion to work properly. In this case, absorption will enhance imaging by doing away with delayed reflections that mask your perception of the primary wave. But you need a panel that absorbs fairly evenly from about 250 hz. on up to 20,000 hz., which most bass traps are not designed to do.
 
^^ +1 - Rich is right, the diffusion created the issue. At those distances pure absorption is the answer

I came to the same conclusions Rich has after many, many hours of measurements and tests with different products. One gets a much cleaner soundstage from absorbing the rear wave.

Matter of fact, my ideal config for an ESL would be a pure monopole. I'll be converting my custom center into a monopole one of these days, stay tuned.
 
Ok will try - distance between my front and back wall is 15.4 feet. The panels are 3.5 feet away from the wall. With me sitting on the sofa, I would be around 1.5 feet away from my wall. Around 7 feet between the panels
 
I was at RMAF 2013 and heard the MBL Corona's (see pic attached). The front wall was bare except for the usual plant behind each speaker. They sounded very good capitalizing on their ability to create a beautiful 3D sound stage. No need to block the back 180 degrees; in fact that's part of the magic. As Jonathan Valin commented when reviewing the MBL 101-Xtreme's, "Sound the way a theatrical play looks—no ersatz third dimension, but actual people on an actual stage right there in front of you (albeit reduced in size)."

That's similar to what you are missing by masking the back wave in your setup, plus you likely have a bit of boomy bass with speakers ~2' from the side walls. I highly encourage you to pull them away 6"+ from the side walls.

In any case, to each his own. Happy Thanksgiving!

Hi sb,

The speaker in the picture is the MBL 116. Having owned the 116's for a couple of years now and supporting Rich's comments, one needs to experiment with the amount of diffusion / absorption on the back wall to determine the best balance for that individual.

MBL recommends an "untreated" back wall in their manual. I assume this is because the side / back wall reflections are part and parcel to the manufacturer's desired sound. I've taken a middle road, based on hours of trial and error, using diffusion (plants) and a judicious amounts of absorption to reach "my" preferred presentation.

And yes, I also agree with Dave. I've been in too many rooms that are, IMHO, over treated / dampened. For me, this creates a slow, lifeless, uninvolving, boring musical listening experience.

As always, each room is different and YMMV.

GG
 
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