Can the Summit ( legacy ) Rock?

Hello Gang,

I am in the process of trying to decide if a pair of Summits ( legacy version) will trip my hammer. I have a pair of JM Labs Mezzo Utopias and a chance to do a 1-1 swap for some 3 year old Summits.
Spec. wise they are similar in range but very different in character and tonal balance. I like the JM Labs tone but since they are not time/phase coherent, they have never opened up and staged like I want them to.
Now if all I played was Diana Krall and Patricia Barber the decision would be over and I would be the Summit's new owner. However.......................I listen to a heck of a lot more Tool, Rush, Testament, Overkill, Pink Floyd and a ton of Goa Trance and Downtempo Drum-N-Bass than the average Audiophile. :rocker::rocker::rocker:
Here is the rub. I seldom hit even 94 db peaks. A crazy night will include Pink Floyd's Pulse album and then we will crack 100 db on a rare note. :devil:
Having owned SL3s and CLS ( originals ) I am skeptical about the ability of the Summit to flesh out the hard and heavy as well as the often poorly produced crap I like to listen to.
System components are an Ayre C5Xe, K1Xe and V3X. The room is narrow at 11'4" but has an effective depth of over 28' as there is no rear wall. There is also a large opening on the front/side wall for a stair case. Placement is up to the speaker. ie: no limits based on aesthetics.
We are getting more into live stuff from Dave Matthews, Shawn Mullins and Peter Gabriel. Some of which is well done and some of which is dreck ( but I like it so it is important to me!).
I was leaning towards a time and phase coherent dynamic design ( Dunlavy, Meadowlark etc.) but the speed and transient attack of the Summit caught my attention. Does anybody know the slope of the crossover from woofers to panel?
Should I "Run Like Hell" towards these or perhaps "Hell Awaits"? Free bag of pride for anyone who can figure out both quoted references.

Mike

well -- I think the summits will... I own odysseys w/descent - have listened to summits.... If the live Dave Mathews is with Tim Reynolds or Stand Up - they will sound awsome - most of Dave's stuff will - as will the Floyd (The Wall CD , DSOTM -SACD) ... I think the Logans do percussion particularly well - and the Summits will give you the bass drum - you were missing in your other models.... also the panel woofer integration is fantastic (I didn't know I had any issues with that - until I heard the Summits - actually) They are a different sound than the older model - that is for sure... and I think they are a bit more forgiving of a crappy sounding recording than the older models as well (I think it is because of the added bass ) had a salesman say ...'finally an electrostat with balls'.. Will you like the new sound - as compared to your old CLS? Can't say....Some here like the old models - some like the new - some like both!! Now, regarding a fuzzy electric guitar - and whether that would make you gnash your teeth together --- not sure -- other members would know I am sure. You will get soundstage up the ying-yang with them

Wolf,

They will definitely rock. My main interests these days gravitate to classical and jazz. However, when the spirit moves me, I listen to a fair bit of Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Peter Gabriel, and Led Zepplin. No issues, in my room and with my equipment, maintaining a sustained 95DB. The Summits don't blink.

The more pertinent issues, IMO, are your ancillary equipment and your room and the effect they have on what you hear.

My only caveat is that the Summits are quite transparent and will clearly allow you to hear what's on the recording. Given the broad disparity of recording quality, this could be a good thing or a bad thing.

Good luck.

GG

PS: In the dynamic department, the SL3's and the CLS fall quite short of what the Summit will do, the main difference being the powered drivers. I've owned both of these models.

Regarding the X-over frequency, the flexibility to tune the panel / driver interface in this area is quite easy using the adjustments on the back of the speaker. They can sound as thin or full depending on the individual settings.

Out of curiosity, what is the "Legacy" version?

Send me a PM if you wish further info.

Gordon Gray said:

Out of curiosity, what is the "Legacy" version?

Click to expand...

My guess would be the original Summit, as opposed to the current Summit X.

Get a Conrad Johnson Premier 350. They will blow you out of the room...

yes... summits can rock!!

Yes the Legacy Summits will rock...so much so that you MAY find them rockin around the room...they will move at High SPL and heavy bass !!! As others have insinuated they need lots of power. I run mine with 600 wpc monoblocks and they just eat it up.

The Summit's have the ability for sustained high level spl's and the bass weight make rock music extremely enjoyable

If I did not own them I would be hard pressed to believe stats could rock so I understand your trepidation.

If you have the ability to swap, certainly you guys could try them for a week with an opt out clause?????

I just played James Gang Live a couple of nights ago real loud. Lot's of Fun.

The Summits absolutely can rock and even my friends with efficient horn system (Tad, Klispch) agree.

AND when you want the lighter airier audiophile stuff, you will be filled with the joy of ownership, at least I am.

Have Fun.

tonepub said:

Get a Conrad Johnson Premier 350. They will blow you out of the room...

Click to expand...

Hi Jeff,

Based on my experience, the same is true with Pass Labs.

Best,

Gordon

The only downside is that the sweet spot is small, so you can't jump around.

Thanks Guys

Thanks to all who replied. The smallish sweet spot does concern me as we do tend to "move about" and listen from rooms adjacent to the stereo room. Still tempting though.
I wish there was a way to do a few days demo but the owner lives in West Palm and i am in Atlanta.
I have e-mailed ML as to the slope of the crossover. I am a real believer in 1st order networks and having time and phase coherent crossovers. Can not find any published reviews that have impulse or step response graphs. Any ideas?

Odd?

ML got back to me in just a day of so. Great response time. Response however was not so great. I am being told the slope or order of the crossover from woofers to panel is "proprietary info and not to be released". What gives there? Polite in my reply I added that I was not trying to reverse engineer a design but was trying to learn if the things were phase and time coherent all the way or just in the panels.
Got real close to doing the deal but now??????

Wolfsong said:

ML got back to me in just a day of so. Great response time. Response however was not so great. I am being told the slope or order of the crossover from woofers to panel is "proprietary info and not to be released". What gives there? Polite in my reply I added that I was not trying to reverse engineer a design but was trying to learn if the things were phase and time coherent all the way or just in the panels.
Got real close to doing the deal but now??????

Click to expand...

i may have missed it -- you can't demo a pair of summits or summit x's or spires anywhere? No way would I purchase a speaker without listening first because the sound of a speaker is everything you are questioning... Will you like it? Nobody here can say. I think there is less risk with electronics - leaning on reviews, heresay....etc... but not a speaker.... I think the Spires or Summit X are going to get you the closest to what the summit is....I would say the summit x moreso - because of the dual woofer etc....

Wolfsong said:

Thanks to all who replied. The smallish sweet spot does concern me as we do tend to "move about" and listen from rooms adjacent to the stereo room. Still tempting though.
I wish there was a way to do a few days demo but the owner lives in West Palm and i am in Atlanta.
I have e-mailed ML as to the slope of the crossover. I am a real believer in 1st order networks and having time and phase coherent crossovers. Can not find any published reviews that have impulse or step response graphs. Any ideas?

Click to expand...

Like others have suggested, I would certainly make my buying decision based on SOUND, rather than the slope of the crossover.

As far as time and phase coherency of the two woofers relative to the panel, that's likely part of their "secret sauce" and certainly understandable why they won't divulge it!

For what it's worth, there is an excellent article by Robert Harley re bass in the current Absolute Sound (excerpt here... http://www.avguide.com/article/guide-better-bass-tas-197)
where he states "... all sealed speakers have a low-frequency roll-off slope of 12dB per octave..." Not sure if that applies to the Summit/Summit X, but perhaps somebody here knows more.

My Summits certainly rockwhen I want them to. But mostly I want the glorious midrange of ESL's, as I mostly listen to jazz, classical, and blues now. I do have my old hard rock/head banger/techno/alternative stuff from the 80's, all on LP, and it floats my boat when the mood strikes. I've got an Ayre power amp also, and though fabulous inner detail and imaging it has, I would like more bass slam sometimes. It's the amp not the speaker though. My Bel Canto eVo4 was punchier but less inner detail.

To be honest, for the kind of music you listen to I'm not sure any ESL is really your first choice. Best bass slam with ML's I've heard are Spires with the kilowatt Bryston monoblocks, and Vantage with McIntosh 402's.

Now, I'm completely in awe of the Thorens 125th anniversary LP. Cranking up Stravinsky Firebird suite, the kettle drums at the end were enormously deep, clear, and powerful, the best I've heard in my system. My Nordost cabling also gives a 'faster' sound, more lively. If I won the lotto, I'd get the Summit X, just because. Otherwise, my Summits are long term keepers. To me, the rock just fine.