lossless audio for dummys question

Hey all --

I currently have a free version of realplayer & I have CD creater by Roxio... I am interested in storing lossless music on a new ipod touch (that I may purchase - I have a 100 dollar coupon for amazon.com).

I am an idiot when it comes to this stuff - and can't seem to find the lossless options on realplayer. I don't think they come with this version. Secondly, can lossless audio be stored on an ipod? If so, what formats?

What might be a better - cheap or free ripping software that will do lossless for the ipod? Is itunes - something I can rip my own cds with - or is this just a store to purchase music - and then rip the purchased music to the ipod? Again, excuse the ignorance.

One more - anyone know how many songs an 8 gig ipod would store in a lossless format? I figure it is only a matter of time before they come up with an ipod useable - jitter free solution... (yes I know about the wadia & the squeezebox etc...) and if I can store it lossless - why not? I would be ripping CDs.... Anyway, I have this 100 bucks burning a hole in my pocket - and I figured I could use it for something like this....thanks tim.

I'd use iTunes and just go into preferences and set it to one of the lossless modes there. Then you won't have any issues getting it to work on your (soon to be new) iPod.

My wife has an 8gig iPod, I think it stores about 350 songs lossless (somewhere around there, I don't remember exactly). That isn't an issue, my iPod is 120gig, but I've got about 240gig worth of tunes stored on my NAS. Just set up playlists containing what you want and keep them under the 8gig limit and swap them out every now and again.

Careful though, it's a slippery slope. You THINK you're going to buy an iPod, but soon you'll be buying a Squeezebox or a Sonos setup, and you may as well get a new DAC too. Once you start out on the server based music delivery path you'll soon discover it's trick of Satan dooming your audio soul to eternal damnation.

MiTT said:

I'd use iTunes and just go into preferences and set it to one of the lossless modes there. Then you won't have any issues getting it to work on your (soon to be new) iPod.

My wife has an 8gig iPod, I think it stores about 350 songs lossless (somewhere around there, I don't remember exactly). That isn't an issue, my iPod is 120gig, but I've got about 240gig worth of tunes stored on my NAS. Just set up playlists containing what you want and keep them under the 8gig limit and swap them out every now and again.

Careful though, it's a slippery slope. You THINK you're going to buy an iPod, but soon you'll be buying a Squeezebox or a Sonos setup, and you may as well get a new DAC too. Once you start out on the server based music delivery path you'll soon discover it's trick of Satan dooming your audio soul to eternal damnation.

Click to expand...

HA!!! Which leads to my next question....After posting - I thought...hmmm...wonder if Amazon has the Squeezebox.... sure enough.... and now it basically becomes a 100 dollar decision between the ipod and the squeezebox... ipod would be nice for travel for the wi-fi capability... squeezebox would be nice for......(like Dana Carvey...) SAAATAAANNN?????? Good gawd!!!

Squeezeboxes are great! But unless you are going to use it as a serious source, you'll get good enough quality from your iPod (providing it is playing lossless files) connected to your main system for background music (which is all a lot of people want with music servers.

Another vote for iTunes and burning down in a lossless format.
I have about 350 songs on my 16G iPhone and they sound great.
Add an AirPort Express (APX) and you have a wireless option from your PC/Mac to your system. Use the analog out and it's basic background listening.. connect the APX the optical out into your AV processor/receiver and it gets a bit better.. run it int a DAC and your in heaven. Step 1 leads to step 2 which quickly leads to step 3.. that's how I was seduced and there's no looking back.(what a disease) Oh yes.. ad a iPhone or iPod touch to control your computer from anywhere.. it goes on..
Hope this helps

You know guys .... you are all very helpful... I am a computer guy - but absolutely hate to go on when I am home if I can help it (cept for maybe this forum)...and so tonight I bit the bullit and loaded itunes on my pc... I found the apple lossless feature and compared it to a previously burned mp3 (my only option with my version of real player...I think) - Well... to say the least this is really really cool... Songs seem to be around 20 mb each - but they sound fantastic thru my crappy headphones... now I have to decide whether I really need the 32 gig version vs the 8 gig version.... I am not completely diseased yet - since I do not have a DAC....if it ever comes to that - then I get the squeezebox only if the lossless thru the squeezebox sounds better than my Denon 5900 on redbook....

I learned something today - thanks guys....thanks for moving me closer to the dark side.....(but, I still have my Cary SLP98p to make the world right...)

I'm guessing the ipod will not store hi-rez digital downloads? I'm just trying to figure out this gizmos limitations - if say, I were to get a dac at anytime in the future to mate it with...

The 32 gig touch is 279 - the 8 gig is 189... If I went lossless -which I will - I'm thinking I probably want the 32 gig.

anybody that has a squeezebox - any comparisons between an ipod combination (dac + ipod) and the squeezebox - or the squeezebox + dac? and of course VS your cd player? thx....

timm said:

I'm guessing the ipod will not store hi-rez digital downloads? I'm just trying to figure out this gizmos limitations - if say, I were to get a dac at anytime in the future to mate it with...

The 32 gig touch is 279 - the 8 gig is 189... If I went lossless -which I will - I'm thinking I probably want the 32 gig.

anybody that has a squeezebox - any comparisons between an ipod combination (dac + ipod) and the squeezebox - or the squeezebox + dac? and of course VS your cd player? thx....

Click to expand...

Get the 32 - you will not regret it!
I have an older (5thgen) 30gig video that I loaded with Rockbox and can play FLAC files on my iPod....30gigs went fast....so I popped out the drive and replaced it with a 80gig drive....now its full too!

timm said:

I'm guessing the ipod will not store hi-rez digital downloads? I'm just trying to figure out this gizmos limitations - if say, I were to get a dac at anytime in the future to mate it with...

The 32 gig touch is 279 - the 8 gig is 189... If I went lossless -which I will - I'm thinking I probably want the 32 gig.

anybody that has a squeezebox - any comparisons between an ipod combination (dac + ipod) and the squeezebox - or the squeezebox + dac? and of course VS your cd player? thx....

Click to expand...

There's not really much point putting high-res on an iPod - lossless really reaches the limit of the device's capabilities. Also, the high-res files will be way too big for an iPod's ridiculously small storage. And there is not really any way to cheaply use iPod and DAC - the only option is to purchase the Wadia dock which allows access to a native digital stream from the iPod. A bit convoluted.

So, where it is at is like I said earlier: If you want portable and / or background music, get the iPpod. If you want to listen seriously, get the Squeezebox.

Also with iPods, I really think there really is only one choice if you want to store a usable amount of lossless files and that is the 160GB version. As for the 16GB or 32GB - there's not really much difference in it - joke tiny or just tiny. It is BS that Apple would even release something with such a farcical amount of storage in 2009, but hey - that's Apple for you. At least 160GB gives you a still small but usable amount of storage for a significant portion of your lossless library.

This could be incorrect, but I've read that when iTunes wirelessly streams music, whether to an Airport Express, AppleTV, or probably anything else, that it downconverts Apple Lossless into a lossy AAC format in real time.

With that said, I notice absolutely no difference between Apple Lossless and 256kbps AAC.

Feltran said:

I notice absolutely no difference between Apple Lossless and 256kbps AAC.

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On Spires? Huh?

Feltran said:

This could be incorrect, but I've read that when iTunes wirelessly streams music, whether to an Airport Express, AppleTV, or probably anything else, that it downconverts Apple Lossless into a lossy AAC format in real time.

With that said, I notice absolutely no difference between Apple Lossless and 256kbps AAC.

Click to expand...

I don't believe that -- here is why... First of all - it is a format I'm guessing they created -- and secondly - The lossless files suck up the space on the ipod do they not? The ACC files are not as big.. We have had people say they get 350 lossless songs on an ipod / 8 gig...A typical mp3 might take up 4 meg... doing the math - that is about 2000 songs/8 gig. So, I would think since the space IS being taken - it is safe to say the file is lossless. or are you saying that it stores lossless - but plays back lossy? Doesn't make sense to me...

timm said:

I don't believe that -- here is why... First of all - it is a format I'm guessing they created -- and secondly - The lossless files suck up the space on the ipod do they not? The ACC files are not as big.. We have had people say they get 350 lossless songs on an ipod / 8 gig...A typical mp3 might take up 4 meg... doing the math - that is about 2000 songs/8 gig. So, I would think since the space IS being taken - it is safe to say the file is lossless. or are you saying that it stores lossless - but plays back lossy? Doesn't make sense to me...

Click to expand...

The iPod is definitely playing the lossless files. It's just when they are streamed wirelessly that they are allegedly downconverted.

amey01 said:

There's not really much point putting high-res on an iPod - lossless really reaches the limit of the device's capabilities. Also, the high-res files will be way too big for an iPod's ridiculously small storage. And there is not really any way to cheaply use iPod and DAC - the only option is to purchase the Wadia dock which allows access to a native digital stream from the iPod. A bit convoluted.

So, where it is at is like I said earlier: If you want portable and / or background music, get the iPpod. If you want to listen seriously, get the Squeezebox.

Also with iPods, I really think there really is only one choice if you want to store a usable amount of lossless files and that is the 160GB version. As for the 16GB or 32GB - there's not really much difference in it - joke tiny or just tiny. It is BS that Apple would even release something with such a farcical amount of storage in 2009, but hey - that's Apple for you. At least 160GB gives you a still small but usable amount of storage for a significant portion of your lossless library.

Click to expand...

so - amey - my thoughts are - I like the portable device with internet connectivity via wifi. But getting it - also puts me closer to serving the music if I want - since I will be storing it all in a lossless format on my computer. If I want to listen seriously - I would need a squeezebox plus a DAC...and a darn good one (read $$$) at that if it were to improve the sound of my current source as well as the squeezebox. I am not ready for a 1400 (squeezebox + Psaudio DAC Link III) or a 5000 (Squeezebox + berkley alpha DAC) commitment.

I don't see how 1400 songs - or 120 albums is small - as far as 32 gig of lossless storeage goes. Based on a 4 minute song .. that is ......90 hrs of music. but...I guess definitions and useage will vary...

timm said:

so - amey - my thoughts are - I like the portable device with internet connectivity via wifi. But getting it - also puts me closer to serving the music if I want - since I will be storing it all in a lossless format on my computer. If I want to listen seriously - I would need a squeezebox plus a DAC...and a darn good one (read $$$) at that if it were to improve the sound of my current source as well as the squeezebox. I am not ready for a 1400 (squeezebox + Psaudio DAC Link III) or a 5000 (Squeezebox + berkley alpha DAC) commitment.

I don't see how 1400 songs - or 120 albums is small - as far as 32 gig of lossless storeage goes. Based on a 4 minute song .. that is ......90 hrs of music. but...I guess definitions and useage will vary...

Click to expand...

You'll get about 90 albums in lossless on 32 gig. Don't you want more? I haven't had less than 100 albums since I was about 16 years old. The music server interface / utility is great, but part of the benefit is that you can call up any album at any time. It sort of doesn't work unless you have all your albums on it!

You can use a Squeezebox without a DAC and still get better quality than an iPod - but then no portable though!

amey01 said:

You'll get about 90 albums in lossless on 32 gig. Don't you want more? I haven't had less than 100 albums since I was about 16 years old. The music server interface / utility is great, but part of the benefit is that you can call up any album at any time. It sort of doesn't work unless you have all your albums on it!

You can use a Squeezebox without a DAC and still get better quality than an iPod - but then no portable though!

Click to expand...

Well - I see your point. I am not completely committed to computer based music though... I see myself using both - and probably would put music on that is either new - or something old that I play a lot -- I don't need my entire collection on it. I look at the squeezebox as a replacement for my main source - and without the DAC - I do not believe it would be better than that - so if I went the squeezebox route - I would in essence be sacrificing quality as well as transportability. Maybe at some point I will be - but right now I just see it as squeezebox sound quality vs my current source (or a source to be named later). I do not want to give up quality for ease of use in my main rig.....

I don't know how important this is to everyone. If you are using itunes, there is a difference using apple lossless, and the wav format. I am now redoing all my music files in the wav format. I am using a digital out on my ipod dock to a digital in on my McIntosh MCD 500, using its internal dac. There is a definate difference in sound quality. Apple lossless just sounds a little flat when you compare it to the origional cd disk. I was able to que it together with a push of the input button on the cd player. I then recorded one cd in the wav format, and did the same thing. If you have good equipment, I suggest you use the wav format.

Ron said:

I don't know how important this is to everyone. If you are using itunes, there is a difference using apple lossless, and the wav format. I am now redoing all my music files in the wav format. I am using a digital out on my ipod dock to a digital in on my McIntosh MCD 500, using its internal dac. There is a definate difference in sound quality. Apple lossless just sounds flat when you compare it to the origional cd disk. I was able to que it together with a push of the input button on the cd player. I then recorded one cd in the wav format, and did the same thing. If you have good equipment, I suggest you use the wav format.

Click to expand...

I think that there are other factors involved. Lossless means exactly that - compression that is totally reversible, yielding the exact same input data. Are you using digital out from your CD player to the same input on your Mac for your comparison? If not, it may be simply a perception problem in that the WAV sounds better and/or more like the output of the CD player.

SteveInNC said:

I think that there are other factors involved. Lossless means exactly that - compression that is totally reversible, yielding the exact same input data. Are you using digital out from your CD player to the same input on your Mac for your comparison? If not, it may be simply a perception problem in that the WAV sounds better and/or more like the output of the CD player.

Click to expand...

I am using balanced outputs from the cd player.

I thought Apple Lossless had compression, just not that much. That's why I switched to AIFF on my MacBook.