Bad Summit

Kudos to you sleepysurf for not giving up on the Summit's and sticking with them to figure it out.:bowdown: Also, I admire your patience with the issue. It would have been easy to start a rant and blame Martin Logan for bad quality control, but as you stated earlier it was quite possibly the previous owner who did this accidentally. What's scary is if you had not figured this out then this issue would have been passed on to some unsuspecting future owner after you sold them, and both of you would have come to a false conclusion just as the previous owner did. Again, good job for catching this and going at it in a professional/cool headed manner.:rocker:

Glen

FOUNTAIN said:

Kudos to you sleepysurf for not giving up on the Summit's and sticking with them to figure it out.:bowdown: Also, I admire your patience with the issue. It would have been easy to start a rant and blame Martin Logan for bad quality control, but as you stated earlier it was quite possibly the previous owner who did this accidentally. What's scary is if you had not figured this out then this issue would have been passed on to some unsuspecting future owner after you sold them, and both of you would have come to a false conclusion just as the previous owner did. Again, good job for catching this and going at it in a professional/cool headed manner.:rocker:

Glen

Click to expand...

I agree. it would be nice to see more of this type of approach in the future you tackled this problem like a true enthusiast !

BTW what is the best way to get this equipment it looks as if you must order overseas is this what you did?

Alan,

Glad it worked out and confirmed my hunch that something was not right with the drivers. Good job in troubleshooting.

Perseverance does pay off.

GG

FISH_MAN said:

BTW what is the best way to get this equipment it looks as if you must order overseas is this what you did?

Click to expand...

Yes, the XTZ Room Analyzer is a Swedish product, and designed specifically for WinXP. It has some issues with Vista, and I'm not sure if it will be compatible with Windows 7. XTZ sells it for ~$260 (USD), but there are often "customs fees" tacked on. IMHO, it's well worth it, but you can accomplish the same thing with the free Room EQ Wizard, and a calibrated mic or the Rat Shack sound meter.

IMHO, this "exercise" proves the need for both listening and objective measurements, for ideal system setup. My "ears" kept telling me something was amiss, but I needed objective measurements to "pinpoint" the problem!

sleepysurf said:

Yes, the XTZ Room Analyzer is a Swedish product, and designed specifically for WinXP. It has some issues with Vista, and I'm not sure if it will be compatible with Windows 7. XTZ sells it for ~$260 (USD), but there are often "customs fees" tacked on. IMHO, it's well worth it, but you can accomplish the same thing with the free Room EQ Wizard, and a calibrated mic or the Rat Shack sound meter.

IMHO, this "exercise" proves the need for both listening and objective measurements, for ideal system setup. My "ears" kept telling me something was amiss, but I needed objective measurements to "pinpoint" the problem!

Click to expand...

Happy listening,
Roberto,.

sleepysurf said:

Voila, fixed!!

I pulled the suspect bottom woofer, to check the connectors, but they were correctly attached. Next, per Jim's suggestion, I pulled the speaker back plate out to make sure the woofers were each connected to their proper board (see attached reference pic from Jim). Turns out, the woofer connectors were attached to the wrong boards!!

I presume the top and middle boards have unique phase differences to better integrate the two woofers and panel, or perhaps part of the crossovers reside there.:

Click to expand...

That must have caused the woofers to be out of phase with each other or the panel which would explain the low freq dip you were seeing/hearing.

Glad you finally found and fixed it. I'll have to come over and hear it now. This thread should be archived in the DIY section.

Craig said:

That must have caused the woofers to be out of phase with each other or the panel which would explain the low freq dip you were seeing/hearing...

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'd really like to know what each of those boards does with regard to the phase of each woofer, but that's probably part of their "secret sauce"! I suspect the Summit X has "new and improved" phase controls to better blend the woofers and panel.

Perhaps it's still possible that ML would reconsider offering board and crossover upgrades for original Summit owners (just like Wadia, and some other manufacturers offer an upgrade path). Based on some of the D-I-Y repair info Jim sent me, I think it's something most of us could handle ourselves.

When talking to Melodie (who works with Jim), I also suggested the idea of having owners remove the stat panels (quite easy) and shipping the cabinets themselves back to ML in custom boxes with foam, where they could make repairs or do upgrades. Even if only a small percentage of us actually upgraded, it would still be another revenue stream for ML. While it's unlikely I'd sell my Summits in order to buy the Summit X, I would seriously consider shelling out (reasonable) $$ for an upgrade path. Hopefully somebody from ML is reading this!

Well, today's the first day I had for some extended listening to my new and improved Summits! Wow! Virtually every track sounds like I've never heard it before! It's amazing how much the left channel phase issue "sucked" the life out of the music. Solo vocalists are now dead center, and the heft and realism of every note is markedly improved. Unfortunately, the mid and upper bass is now a bit overpowering (also evident in my measurements), but trimming the 25 and 50 Hz controls has helped. I also notched out my front wall acoustic panels so I could push my HDTV back another 2-3", but that didn't have much effect. Looks like I'll need to play around with repositioning the speakers altogether, but will wait until I get the upgraded Summit X spikes, so I can tweak and measure everything one step at a time. For those sitting on the fence about whether or not to invest time and $$ in speaker-room measurements, I heartily recommend doing so!

sleepysurf said:

Perhaps it's still possible that ML would reconsider offering board and crossover upgrades for original Summit owners (just like Wadia, and some other manufacturers offer an upgrade path). Based on some of the D-I-Y repair info Jim sent me, I think it's something most of us could handle ourselves.

When talking to Melodie (who works with Jim), I also suggested the idea of having owners remove the stat panels (quite easy) and shipping the cabinets themselves back to ML in custom boxes with foam, where they could make repairs or do upgrades. Even if only a small percentage of us actually upgraded, it would still be another revenue stream for ML. While it's unlikely I'd sell my Summits in order to buy the Summit X, I would seriously consider shelling out (reasonable) $$ for an upgrade path. Hopefully somebody from ML is reading this!

Click to expand...

Well, no kidding!!! Excellent suggestion. I would LOVE to see your terrific idea come to fruition. ML should take the hint.

Len44 said:

Well, no kidding!!! Excellent suggestion. I would LOVE to see your terrific idea come to fruition. ML should take the hint.

Click to expand...

I think you have to see it from ML's point of view. I think Jim makes on-the-spot judgements when giving service information to people on the field. And so he should - it is what keeps ML customer service second to none.

But......if they offered something like an upgrade (to all and sundry) then you'd suddenly have bozos that don't know the first thing about electronics screwing with and stuffing up their speakers. Suddenly this would become ML's problem. It would be a costly exercise.

I can just see them now - "I tried your stupid upgrade and now my speakers are fried" [one finger scratching arse and the other smoking a cigarette].

You have to think from a business perspective - and unfortunately that extends beyond yours/mine/ML Owners' Club members abilities and aptitude.

amey01 said:

I think you have to see it from ML's point of view. I think Jim makes on-the-spot judgements when giving service information to people on the field. And so he should - it is what keeps ML customer service second to none.

But......if they offered something like an upgrade (to all and sundry) then you'd suddenly have bozos that don't know the first thing about electronics screwing with and stuffing up their speakers. Suddenly this would become ML's problem. It would be a costly exercise.

I can just see them now - "I tried your stupid upgrade and now my speakers are fried" [one finger scratching arse and the other smoking a cigarette].

You have to think from a business perspective - and unfortunately that extends beyond yours/mine/ML Owners' Club members abilities and aptitude.

Click to expand...

True! Hence my suggestion for local removal of the stat panels, and sending only the woofer cabinets to ML for the upgrade. Problem is there would still be some risk for owner-induced damage to the stat panels, or cabinet shipping damage in transit. However, if the upgraders are willing to cover the cost of insurance, it could still be economically viable for ML to try this. I think most Summit owners who'd actually be interested in the upgrade are a bit higher-functioning protoplasm than most! Time will tell if ML will reconsider!