Spires vs. ReQuest (Possibly buyers remorse?)

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Sonnie

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I am almost ashamed to say I think I may have buyers remorse. It ain't the money, although saving money is always better. It's the sound! I am simply not hearing what I heard in my Ascent i's with my Spires. I cannot seem to get there with the sound either, no matter where I position them or where I sit.

My room is bigger, 19.5'W x 23.5'D x 8.5'H vs 11.5'W x 19.5'D x 8.5'H. 8' wider and 4' deeper with much more space to work with.

I cannot seem to get the ultra wide and deep soundstage that I was getting previously in the smaller room.

I now believe I maybe should have gone with the ReQuests instead of the Spires.

I do not quite understand how the Spire panels are supposed to be so much better. 30° dispersion on a 12.5" wide panel on a 59" tall speaker vs 30° dispersion on an 18" wide panel with a height of 71". How exactly does ML defy logic and say the Spires have a larger sweet spot? This is not a sarcastic question, btw. It seems to me that the taller and wider panel is going to give a wider sweet spot as well as present a wider, deeper and taller sound stage. I am curious to your thoughts.
 
I am almost ashamed to say I think I may have buyers remorse. It ain't the money, although saving money is always better. It's the sound! I am simply not hearing what I heard in my Ascent i's with my Spires. I cannot seem to get there with the sound either, no matter where I position them or where I sit.

My room is bigger, 19.5'W x 23.5'D x 8.5'H vs 11.5'W x 19.5'D x 8.5'H. 8' wider and 4' deeper with much more space to work with.

I cannot seem to get the ultra wide and deep soundstage that I was getting previously in the smaller room.

I now believe I maybe should have gone with the ReQuests instead of the Spires.

I do not quite understand how the Spire panels are supposed to be so much better. 30° dispersion on a 12.5" wide panel on a 59" tall speaker vs 30° dispersion on an 18" wide panel with a height of 71". How exactly does ML defy logic and say the Spires have a larger sweet spot? This is not a sarcastic question, btw. It seems to me that the taller and wider panel is going to give a wider sweet spot as well as present a wider, deeper and taller sound stage. I am curious to your thoughts.

One or two things:
Position the speakers according to "the extra tweak" in the ML manual;
Double check the wiring phase on the speakers.
 
First of all, it is not so much the width of the panel that matters, since both have the same degree of dispersion. It is the amount of air they can move. Because of ML's new X-stat technology, they are able to move twice as much air for the same panel size. This is why the smaller panel is supposed to work just as well if not better than the larger panels of the old generation.

There is no reason you shouldn't be able to get as good sound and as wide and deep of a soundstage with the newer speakers that you did with the older generation. But you must understand that you have changed the speaker and the room at the same time, and it will take you a while to get things dialed in properly and get used to the new acoustics. The same setup you had in the old room may not work in the new room.

How many hours do you have on your speakers? If they are brand new, they need to be broken in before you even begin to tweak the placement. You may also find that you need some acoustic treatments to tame reflections in your new room. I own both Ascents and Summits, and get great sound from both. But my Summits are in an acoustically treated room and far surpass what the Ascents are capable of in my untreated basement.
 
for one thing 19.5'W x 23.5 is almost a square and that is terrible for room acoustics.
 
Actually 19.5 x 23.5 x 8.5 is near perfect if you check it in the various room mode calculators. I could have had anywhere from 14' wide to 24' wide x 20' deep to 24' deep. After a very intense study and LOTS of room mode calculations, I ended up where I did. Here are just a few calculations of various room sizes:

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8.15' being the average height considering the riser.
 
I have seriously tweaked the speakers to death... and I do have acousitical treatments. If I treat it any more it will be dead in the room.
 
There is one thing I have not tried yet. I have the larger sub boxes in each corner of the room. I might try lying them down and then experiment more with the positioning. Maybe they are causing some issues.

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I seem to get very good imaging and the sound is good, but just not that huge depth of sound stage I was getting with the Ascent i's.
 
Sonny,

What are you expecting to hear in this thread? You haven't told us anything about the break in of the speakers, the system they are connected to, or the way they are set up in the room and exactly what acoustic treatments you have and where you have them placed. :confused: Without giving us any information to assess your situation, it is hard to give you any advice other than what Gordon just said.

Often, when people come on to the site and complain about the sound of their speakers, once we dig a little deeper and get some more information it becomes glaringly obvious that they have serious problems with their setup or their associated equipment or room acoustics that is the probable cause of their issues. But without any information it is hard to give you any helpful advice. I do agree that your dimensions should be fine acoustically, but your room construction and your what acoustic treatments you have and where you have them placed can make a huge difference in your sound, along with your associated equipment. Just having acoustic treatments is not enough. Having the right kind of treatments, and having them placed appropriately is crucial.

Ultimately, it may be that you just prefer the sound of the Ascents over the sound of the Spires. But I highly doubt that is the case. My guess is there is an issue with your current setup that is hurting your sound. But without more information it is impossible for anyone on this forum to help you with that.
 
Ok, I see you have posted a picture now. Just looking at that, without any further information, it appears that your speakers may be too far apart and are way too close to both the front wall and the side wall. You have no acoustic treatments that I can see to dampen the rear wave. If you cannot do that, your speaker should be at least five feet out from the front wall. I cannot see the rest of the room to know how you have treated the side walls or the rear wall, if at all.

As for the sub boxes, I would leave them out of the system completely until I got the main speakers dialed in. But where they are right now, they are amplified by the corners of the room (horn-loaded, basically) and are probably ruining your imaging and soundstage. I also see no bass traps in your corners, so you are probably dealing with some room nodes as well. Ultimately, it is the comb filtering from the reflection of the rear wave of your dipole speakers that is causing your soundstage issues, I would guess. Put a full range absorber on the front wall behind each speaker and you will notice a big improvement I think.
 
Sorry Rich... I forget where I am at sometimes... thinking most are familiar with my setup.

Cedar Creek Cinema (full write up) with pics.

The Spires were demos from a dealer... well broke-in according to him. I have put about 40-50 hours on them since. I run an Onkyo 876 Receiver for the unpowered portion of the Spires, which I would highly doubt be an issue. The Spires are far enough from the side walls and toed in enough to where the side walls should have little effect on the main listening position, although I have acoustic treatments there anyway. You can see those in the pics above. We have some pretty good guys at the Shack when it comes to room treatments.

What do I want to hear? Exactly what I mentioned in the first post.
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I am guessing that was a sarcastic question. I am curious as to the thoughts of users that may have experienced similar issues... may have owned one or both of the speakers in question... differences between older and newer ML's, etc. Conversation... it is what everyone wants when they post in a forum.
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I look at all of the systems here and sometimes I wonder what really makes them sound good. There is a lot of contradictions based on system setups. You have narrow, wide, medium, shallow, deep... nearly every conceivable setup, treated and untreated. Assuming all of these owners are getting the max from their ML's, it would seem there is a way to make them work in nearly any setup. I have to think I am missing something... and again, maybe it has to do with those subs in the corner. Looking at my pics tonight made me think of those and how they may be effecting the sound in some way. More experimentation is at hand before I do anything drastic, although picking up a pair of ReQuest would not be too drastic for experimenation purposes.
 
Ok, I see you have posted a picture now. Just looking at that, without any further information, it appears that your speakers may be too far apart and are way too close to both the front wall and the side wall. You have no acoustic treatments that I can see to dampen the rear wave. If you cannot do that, your speaker should be at least five feet out from the front wall. I cannot see the rest of the room to know how you have treated the side walls or the rear wall, if at all.

The front wall treatment may very be the difference. I wondered about treatments on the front wall with the ML's being a little different type speaker than most others. I did have the Ascent i's a bit closer to the walls in the smaller room, but I had treatments on the front wall as well.

The speakers are not where you see them in this picture. I have since moved them farther out from the wall, nearly 48" and closer inward, which did help some. Maybe the treatment would ice them... and be less expensive than ReQuest.

I see some installing diffuser panels instead of absorption panels on the front walls. Both have claimed success. Is there a rhyme or reason between choosing either?

As for the sub boxes, I would leave them out of the system completely until I got the main speakers dialed in. But where they are right now, they are amplified by the corners of the room (horn-loaded, basically) and are probably ruining your imaging and soundstage. I also see no bass traps in your corners, so you are probably dealing with some room nodes as well. Ultimately, it is the comb filtering from the reflection of the rear wave of your dipole speakers that is causing your soundstage issues, I would guess. Put a full range absorber on the front wall behind each speaker and you will notice a big improvement I think.

See... in the other room I had the subs located in the same position, front corners... with no issues. Although they were not that tall, which makes me think the height may have an effect. There are no room mode issues from the response plots I have taken thus far.

The first thing I will try is lying those front subs down, then I'll go with the front wall treatments.
 
While not the end all (proper room treatment takes time) I can tell you one of your largest problems. I have in my Vantages a far less demanding panel and even for those the Onkyo 876 would not be sufficient. To begin XSTATs, in my experience are noticeably brighter than the older CLSII generation panels. Onkyo by nature are excessively bright receiver's, lending themselves better to warmer more nuetral speakers such as Polks. Furthermore the power to handle the Logan's simply isn't there. That reviver is out of its league with those Spires. I know it claims 150w but it's not consistently delivering that power, nor is it truly stable to 2ohms which Logan's' will dig down to. While I personally am not an Onkyo or Integra fan, it can function for your system, you just need to pre-out to a power amp. Even on a budget there are some great sub $2000 2 channel units by Rotel, Anthem, etc. Doing so will also noticeably improve performance on your center and rears, relieving stress off your receiver. From personal experience when I compared receivers 2 years ago, I tested Onkyo's Txnr1000 ($5,000 behemoth, the biggest unit they ever built), against the Harman Kardon Avr 745 (which I have till this day) and as far as taking physical command of a speaker the Harman won all the way (let me note HK are not my favorite receivers, Yamaha and Denon take that title, the dealer I worked for at that time did not have access to those makes). Even still, a year later when I upgraded to ML, I felt I needed a 2 channel amp to properly handle my Logan's. I wanted Krell, but didn't have the bankroll, so I settled for TAS amp of the year 2008, the Cambridge audio Azur 840W (a great value at $2500).
 
Well, just a brief observation...

I have both Ascent i's and Summits (as well as Aeon i's, for that matter). I must say that the Ascents are one heck of a fine speaker -- quite excellent to my ears, at least. A difficult speaker to surpass.

The Summits sound different, and now that they are broken in and I am used to their sound, I am certainly impressed. Improved integration and overall "tighter" and controlled sound, improved bass, etc.

My point is, the Ascent's are not easily improved upon, i.e., I don't see it as a night and day improvement -- as it was when I first placed the Aeons in my system...
 
We have some pretty good guys at the Shack when it comes to room treatments.

What do I want to hear? Exactly what I mentioned in the first post. I am guessing that was a sarcastic question. I am curious as to the thoughts of users that may have experienced similar issues... may have owned one or both of the speakers in question... differences between older and newer ML's, etc. Conversation... it is what everyone wants when they post in a forum.
For sound, depends on what YOU want to hear. 120dB+??? Sound levels irrelevant and sound stage is most important? Quality over Quantity, or Quantity over Quality? If you are unable to obtain YOUR desired sound in your room with proper and thorough treatments along with speaker placements (after extensive testing), then maybe ML's are not for you.

Yeah, Glenn, Bryan and Ethan do visit the acoustics forum over at HTS.

Are your treatments hidden as someone mentioned they do not show in the photos. More treatments will make the room too dead? Most do not know what a properly treated room sounds like. Sound reflections, 1st, SBIR, etc. are so prevalent in rooms that once treated it sounds dead. Why? Most are used to all the room interactions occurring with playback - making it sound bright, too lively, etc. etc. But maybe you like that type of sound.

The Onkyo, again as noted by other people here, is a bright sounding unit and does not have the ability to really show what your Spires can do. You used to have an Anthem Amp didn't you - what happened to that? The receiver/ML mating is not just a single opinion here, but shared and agreed upon by many who have "been there done that". Once you get your placement and room issues resolved to the best sound, we could recommend some great separates for you, but that would just be an Audiophile Ego thing, as noted by some at HTS, so probably not worth going there.
 
My take on the 3rd gen ML speakers are that they are extremely accurate and very fast. To my ear the new ML designs sound too focused and a tad bit grainy. I like the sound of the second gen ML speakers. To my ear the sound of the 2nd gen speakers are more warm and a bit more rounded. I’m not sure if this is what you are experiencing.
 
Sonny,

You still haven't detailed what kind of acoustic treatments you have or where you have them placed. From what I can see in your pictures, you have a couple of traps on the rear wall near the corner and some traps on the side wall. Your traps on the side wall appear to be placed more for visual effect than necessarily in the right spots to limit side wall reflections for your sweet spot seat. Without actually being in the room I can't tell. But the traps in the rear, even if they are of sufficient absorption ability to function as bass traps, do not function near as efficiently mounted like that as they would straddling the corner.

I guess what I am trying to say is your treatments appear to be placed more for visual appearance than for proper sound treatment. Placing acoustic treatments is both an art and a science, and some professional advice from an acoustic expert can go a long way toward achieving your goals.

Unless you can get your panels five feet out from your front walls, I personally feel that full range absorptive panels mounted behind your speakers is a must for proper soundstage and imaging. That is the first thing I would do in trying to fix your problems. Except in the largest of rooms, I don't recommend diffusers for the front wall for dipole speakers. Jonathan has done lots of measurements showing the ill-effects of diffusers on the front wall behind ML's.

Again, my recommendation to you is to take the subs completely out of the system to get your ML's dialed in. Once you get your main speakers sounding perfect, then start trying to integrate the subs. I know it takes a while, but it could save you a lot of headaches.

Finally, once you have the new system all dialed in within the new room, you really should consider others' remarks about the receiver. I don't care if you are using Ascents, Requests, or Spires, your quality of sound will jump up tenfold if you put in some high quality separates. The bar for what you think is great sound with your system right now is lower than you realize and one of your main bottlenecks is that receiver.
 
The speakers are not where you see them in this picture. I have since moved them farther out from the wall, nearly 48" and closer inward, which did help some. .

help some ?? how far apart are they now ?? 8' or more.....too much !!

Put 'em 7-8' apart, 4-6' from wall behind them, adj toe-in and ESL angle rake.

Corner bass trapping, combination diffusion / absortion behind, first point of refection treatment, possibly rear wall treatment.

pour beverage of choice, select music of choice, sit down listen and enjoy !!

Now if this dosent work, put system on A-gon...sell, take proceeds to Sam's Club and by a Bose system !! :eek:
 
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Maybe the speakers are simply not to your taste, no matter what you do. Their basic voice may not be your cup of tea.

Are those subs tapped horns?
 
Thanks for the suggestions and ideas.

I like the Bose idea the best.
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Those subs are LLT ... ported and tuned to 18.7Hz.

The traps on the side walls are GIK 242's and they are actual place at first and second reflection points from the main front row center listening position as well as the back row two center seating positions first reflection points. These reflection points work for nearly all of the locations that I can place the ML's, other than off the front stage, which I have not tried yet.

The main reason for the rear GIK Monster Bass Traps was to tame the heavy bass off the rear wall for those sitting on the back row. There ended up not being an issue there, but the panels are there anyway. Having front and rear subs helps tremendously with room modes and standing waves in the lower regions.

The front subs have to stay... there are not a lot of options for those, other than lying them down or maybe building a different box design that does not stand as tall.

This has given me some good ideas to try. I will give integrate the ideas until I get what I am looking for and as a last resort try the ReQuest. I like the sound of ML's too well to give up completely.

First step... lie the front subs down and test various Spire placements.
Second... tilt speakers slightly forward and test.
Third... add front wall acoustic panels and test.
Fourth... consider adding two channel amp.
Fifth... buy used ReQuest.
Sixth... throw all speakers in the river with rope tied from speakers to my leg.
 

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