Better late than never
- Thread starter DC-Audiophile
- Start date
Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:
DC-Audiophile
Well-known member
Jonathan,
Thanks for the quick feedback and artful overlay on the PDF! I have a few questions regarding your suggestions:
1) Which of the suggestions would most affect imaging? Specifically, I'm looking to remove the slight edge off voices, making them and instruments sound fuller, and generally make the sound stage "thicker".
2) In what order would you implement the traps?
3) Are you partial to RealTraps, or are other products equally effective (ATS/GIK Acoustics)?
4) I am trying to minimize the "studio" look and was wondering if you had any information on the sound absorbent paint or similar products which blend in more?
5) Given that the sound of the speakers in the showroom was pretty good (picture attached in my prior post), I'm trying to reconcile the differences to better understand the acoustic differences in what appears to be a room similar to my living room.
Thanks!
ANDREW
Andrew,
I am sure Jon will give you a full reply, but I will quickly give you my thoughts on the subject. I found that placing traps on the front wall (behind the speakers) and on the side walls made the most difference in soundstage, imaging and removing the edge. I am partial to Real Traps, but that is not to say that other manufacturers don't make great products. I know that GIK makes some Art panels that are more pleasing to the eye. One thing you want to make sure of for the panels behind the speakers: you want a panel that absorbs fairly evenly from about 250 hz. on up. That covers the full range of the electrostatic panel's output. Anything less and you will still get reflections and comb filtering that will harm your imaging.
My suggestion: don't even try to reconcile the differences between the showroom and your room. Every room is so different acoustically based on size, shape, and construction, not to mention differences in components and system setup, that it is virtually impossible to make comparisons based on looks. Just experiment and try to get them to sound their best in your room. It takes lots of tweaking and experimentation to get the best out of these speakers.
I am sure Jon will give you a full reply, but I will quickly give you my thoughts on the subject. I found that placing traps on the front wall (behind the speakers) and on the side walls made the most difference in soundstage, imaging and removing the edge. I am partial to Real Traps, but that is not to say that other manufacturers don't make great products. I know that GIK makes some Art panels that are more pleasing to the eye. One thing you want to make sure of for the panels behind the speakers: you want a panel that absorbs fairly evenly from about 250 hz. on up. That covers the full range of the electrostatic panel's output. Anything less and you will still get reflections and comb filtering that will harm your imaging.
My suggestion: don't even try to reconcile the differences between the showroom and your room. Every room is so different acoustically based on size, shape, and construction, not to mention differences in components and system setup, that it is virtually impossible to make comparisons based on looks. Just experiment and try to get them to sound their best in your room. It takes lots of tweaking and experimentation to get the best out of these speakers.
DC-Audiophile
Well-known member
Rich,
Thanks for the tips. It seems I get nothing but great advice from this forum!
Question: I've been looking at some member systems and some use traps directly behind the speakers, while others place them between the speakers. What's the difference with each approach? And will placing traps behind my speakers allow me to keep them closer to the wall rather than further out (I'm talking about 3ft vs. 5ft)?
Tx,
ANDREW
Andrew,
The idea with placing traps directly behind the speakers is to absorb most of the rear wave of the electrostatic panel so that it doesn't reflect off the front wall to the side walls to your ears to cause comb filtering and other nasty effects which harm your imaging. The further you can pull your speakers away from the front wall, the less damaging these reflections become due to time delays.
There is a lot of debate on this site about whether the rear wave reflections provide "ambiance" that enhances the sound, or comb filtering and other effects which harm imaging and soundstaging. Jonathan and I fall in the latter camp. No question that the closer your speakers are to the front wall, the greater the need for absorption directly behind your speakers. But I still think even with speakers five feet from the front wall that untamed rear wave reflections will detract from your imaging and soundstaging.
I think the idea of placing some absorption in the middle of the front wall, instead of behind the speakers, is a holdover from box speaker setups, with the idea still being to keep reflections from one speaker from crossing over to the other side of the room (in other words, to keep reflections from the left speaker from bouncing over and ending up at your right ear and vice versa). But I will let those more qualified than I explain that better. Jonathan (IMHO) is one of the most qualified people on this forum to discuss these matters. He has taken the time and effort to do lots of measurements showing the advantages of having absorption behind the speakers. I strongly suggest you research some of his older threads on this subject.
I haven't relied on measurements so much as my own ears in placing my traps. But, interestingly, Jonathan and I have come to very similar conclusions and have our traps set up similarly, even though our rooms are very different.
By the way, I don't mean at all to diminish the importance of bass traps in the corners to improve the overall sound of your speakers. Bass traps are mandatory to achieve the best sound in my opinion. But I found that the absorptive panels behind the speakers and on the side walls made the most difference in imaging, soundstage, and taking the "edge" off the sound, which is what you were asking about.
The idea with placing traps directly behind the speakers is to absorb most of the rear wave of the electrostatic panel so that it doesn't reflect off the front wall to the side walls to your ears to cause comb filtering and other nasty effects which harm your imaging. The further you can pull your speakers away from the front wall, the less damaging these reflections become due to time delays.
There is a lot of debate on this site about whether the rear wave reflections provide "ambiance" that enhances the sound, or comb filtering and other effects which harm imaging and soundstaging. Jonathan and I fall in the latter camp. No question that the closer your speakers are to the front wall, the greater the need for absorption directly behind your speakers. But I still think even with speakers five feet from the front wall that untamed rear wave reflections will detract from your imaging and soundstaging.
I think the idea of placing some absorption in the middle of the front wall, instead of behind the speakers, is a holdover from box speaker setups, with the idea still being to keep reflections from one speaker from crossing over to the other side of the room (in other words, to keep reflections from the left speaker from bouncing over and ending up at your right ear and vice versa). But I will let those more qualified than I explain that better. Jonathan (IMHO) is one of the most qualified people on this forum to discuss these matters. He has taken the time and effort to do lots of measurements showing the advantages of having absorption behind the speakers. I strongly suggest you research some of his older threads on this subject.
I haven't relied on measurements so much as my own ears in placing my traps. But, interestingly, Jonathan and I have come to very similar conclusions and have our traps set up similarly, even though our rooms are very different.
By the way, I don't mean at all to diminish the importance of bass traps in the corners to improve the overall sound of your speakers. Bass traps are mandatory to achieve the best sound in my opinion. But I found that the absorptive panels behind the speakers and on the side walls made the most difference in imaging, soundstage, and taking the "edge" off the sound, which is what you were asking about.
Gordon
Well-known member
Hi Andrew and welcome to the group! I'm a few days late on this but thought I'd offer my welcome and mention it is nice to have a somewhat local guy with the Spire. I live south of Waldorf and while not around the corner, close enough!
It appears that you're getting some of the same sound (no pun intended) advice I received about 18 months ago when I bought my first ML, the Vantage. I've since moved up to the Spire and have never looked back.
There is a wealth of knowledge here and am grateful it exists and the willingness of the guys to share it is beyond compare.
Gordon
It appears that you're getting some of the same sound (no pun intended) advice I received about 18 months ago when I bought my first ML, the Vantage. I've since moved up to the Spire and have never looked back.
There is a wealth of knowledge here and am grateful it exists and the willingness of the guys to share it is beyond compare.
Gordon
DC-Audiophile
Well-known member
Howdy Neighbor!
I was torn between the Vantage and Spire. I actually always preferred the Spire, but the Vantage sounded great too, and for a lower price. Then I did some math. My last set of speakers lasted my a good 25 years. Spread over another 25 years the difference in list price between the two speakers amounts to $0.31 cents a day! A no-brainer! I even suggested this calculation to the sales guy. And I would have kept my previous speakers if they hadn't suffered successive failures. Fortunately, they failed which allowed me to get the ML's. It was time to move on, move on up!
Have you needed to do much in acoustic treatment? I'm certainly grateful for the advice given, but I really wasn't ready for the idea of hanging traps around my otherwise minimalist decor. I wish someone had some experience with acoustic paint or other methods that could cover an entire so that its not so noticeable. Seems like the options are limited. I'm waiting for additional ideas before moving forward on a solution. After having heard how tremendously excellent these speakers have sounded, I can't bear not to make some progress to reaching their potential.
ANDREW
Andrew, good morning, you've gotten some good advice (Rich and JonFo) you just need to take a deep breath, allow your speakers to get 'run-in' and experiment with the suggestions !
FWIW, if that second pic on page #1 was the salon room you auditioned them in you should have no trouble besting that (sonically) in no time at all !
Also.....on another thought plane....... considering the number of forum members we have residing in the Mid-Atlantic region with Spire's, maybe a "Get Together" would be in order ??
eknuds01
Well-known member
good to see another DC guy in the mix!
Erik
Erik
TrumpetDoug
Well-known member
Gordon
Well-known member
Andrew, I did not look into paints or coatings when setting up my living room. I have 6 RealTraps in the room. 2 HF's Mini's directly behind the speakers, 2 TriTraps on the front corner floor intersection and 2 Micro's at the first reflection point. I could use a few more but the size of the room prevents a standard size trap from being used.
Had these been available when I purchased the RealTraps, I may have gone this route: http://www.gikacoustics.com/products.html There are several traps that are available from various concerns that may integrate well with your minimalist scheme.
Gordon
P.S. See the new thread about Summit X. Some guys are content with no traps so the possibility exists you may like the sound without them once you aclimate to them or vice versa!
Had these been available when I purchased the RealTraps, I may have gone this route: http://www.gikacoustics.com/products.html There are several traps that are available from various concerns that may integrate well with your minimalist scheme.
Gordon
P.S. See the new thread about Summit X. Some guys are content with no traps so the possibility exists you may like the sound without them once you aclimate to them or vice versa!
Last edited:
DC-Audiophile
Well-known member
I noticed that RealTraps has a line called Guilford MiniTraps which are enveloped in cloth. Which Sumimt X thread are you referring to? I search the whole site, but didn't see anything new.
Cheers,
ANDREW
Gordon
Well-known member
Gordon
Well-known member
The Guilford material is an option for those of us not handy with a sewing machine and scissors! My wife cut and fit fabric of her choice (which changes frequently) to cover the traps.
Jonathan and his wife have done something much more advanced and looks quite impressive!
Gordon
Ethan Winer
Well-known member
Forget "acoustic" paint. That's not going to do anything useful for you. There's no getting around the need for proper room setup and placing absorbers and/or diffusors in the right places. If the appearance of permanent panels is an issue, you can put them on stands and bring them in for listening, and remove them when company visits etc. My "rule" for acoustic treatment is you can have affordable, attractive, or effective. Pick any two.
Bottom line - if you want truly great sound, and the treatments must not be visible, then you need to spend more money to build false fabric walls or similar.
--Ethan
Gordon
Well-known member
I had the pleasure of meeting DC-Audiophile, Andrew, this past Sunday. After getting lost in D.C. while following my GPS, I arrived at Andrew's beautiful home late but there none the less! The view of the forest (yes, the forest) out his living room windows is stunning.
We listened to some new music which is now on the list of new CD's to obtain. I especially enjoyed Liane Foly (les petites notes) I just wish I understood French! We moved his speakers around a bit and experimented moving a few traps around the room. Andrew has a very nice sounding system. While his drawings don't really show it, the one side wall is very short and the large opening to the dining room allows for a very wide stage which in all honesty was breathtaking. I don't have that width available and it was very noticeable to me how limited my room is width wise.
We then took the drive to my house. Andrew was kind enough to ask me how fast I was comfortable driving! The city guy meets the country. They do drive quite fast in big cities and being in the boonies, my speed levels are not what they used to be.
We listened to some music that was new to Andrew and he had brought the Liane Foly CD. I've got to order this disc! While I don't have the width available to me, I do have the depth and the layering was top notch on this CD. He had mentioned he thought my bass was a bit bloaty on some cuts and after listening yesterday and today, I have to agree with him. So, I'm going to experiment a bit with my 35 hz knob for the next couple days.
All in all, I had a great time meeting Andrew and experiencing some new music and his system.
Gordon
We listened to some new music which is now on the list of new CD's to obtain. I especially enjoyed Liane Foly (les petites notes) I just wish I understood French! We moved his speakers around a bit and experimented moving a few traps around the room. Andrew has a very nice sounding system. While his drawings don't really show it, the one side wall is very short and the large opening to the dining room allows for a very wide stage which in all honesty was breathtaking. I don't have that width available and it was very noticeable to me how limited my room is width wise.
We then took the drive to my house. Andrew was kind enough to ask me how fast I was comfortable driving! The city guy meets the country. They do drive quite fast in big cities and being in the boonies, my speed levels are not what they used to be.
We listened to some music that was new to Andrew and he had brought the Liane Foly CD. I've got to order this disc! While I don't have the width available to me, I do have the depth and the layering was top notch on this CD. He had mentioned he thought my bass was a bit bloaty on some cuts and after listening yesterday and today, I have to agree with him. So, I'm going to experiment a bit with my 35 hz knob for the next couple days.
All in all, I had a great time meeting Andrew and experiencing some new music and his system.
Gordon
DC-Audiophile
Well-known member
Ditto
Gordon is too modest!
He was a great help and inspiration in getting my Spires to sound significantly better than they had previously! His year+ of tinkering with his own system gave him insights I was just starting to discover!
Things are sounding really good now, but more importantly, on the road to sounding better!
When we got to Gordon's place, an hour-and-a-half later, I commented "wow, we're almost neighbors!" Seriously, only dedicated audio geeks would be driving back and forth to compare each other's systems, and actually enjoy the experience! :music:
I'm envious of Gordon's image depth! It really gives voices and instruments the fullness that I'm just starting to savor. Also, in my system, I might as well have a set of vice grips holding my head in place, otherwise even the slightest head tilt sends the image to one or the other speaker. Gordon's system was more forgiving, less "selfish" than mine.
Moral of the story: Find the other audio nuts who live relatively near you, get together and compare sounds. You'll inevitably have something to learn, and something to share!
Gordon is too modest!
He was a great help and inspiration in getting my Spires to sound significantly better than they had previously! His year+ of tinkering with his own system gave him insights I was just starting to discover!
Things are sounding really good now, but more importantly, on the road to sounding better!
When we got to Gordon's place, an hour-and-a-half later, I commented "wow, we're almost neighbors!" Seriously, only dedicated audio geeks would be driving back and forth to compare each other's systems, and actually enjoy the experience! :music:
I'm envious of Gordon's image depth! It really gives voices and instruments the fullness that I'm just starting to savor. Also, in my system, I might as well have a set of vice grips holding my head in place, otherwise even the slightest head tilt sends the image to one or the other speaker. Gordon's system was more forgiving, less "selfish" than mine.
Moral of the story: Find the other audio nuts who live relatively near you, get together and compare sounds. You'll inevitably have something to learn, and something to share!
Similar threads
