More Nordost ramblings

I just got my final Frey RCA and Brahma power cord, both for my phonostage. These are upgrades from a Shiva cord and Signal Cable Analogue 2 with Eichmann copper bullets.

Replacing the Signal cable RCA with the Frey, I noted better top end air, better decay (using Jazz at the Pawnshop Limehouse Blues as a test LP, esp listening to the vibraphone), a little more inner detail, but the midrange soundstage definitely receeded, though no change in quality. It was different, but to be honest it wasn't better. I didn't like the receeded midrange.

Then I changed the Shiva to the Brahma power cord. Yeah! The bass went deeper and bass slam noticeably improved. But more importantly for me, the midrange went back to mid/slightly forward, just the way I like it. The synergy of the 2 cables is fabulous.

I wouldn't have been happy with the Frey/Shiva combo. I would have gone back to the Signal Cable. But the Frey/Brahma is wonderful, exactly what I was looking for. The more I've been experimenting with power cords, the more impressed I've become with the Nordost line. I wouldn't bother with the Shivas, actually. The good stuff starts with the Vishnus. I've got a Shiva to my tuner, more because it looks good than for any sonic improvement And it's paid for. But I've now got Frey' IC's everywhere except the tuner, Frey speaker cables, and Brahmas to all components, with one Valhalla power cord from the wall to the Furman. There is definitely synergy with these Nordost cables. I'm very pleased.

I must've felt a disturbance in the Force, because I was at my local audio dealer on Monday, asking for a price of a complete set of Frey and Valhalla cables!

I do wonder why Nordost didn't use the same naming convention for the PCs as they do for their ICs and speaker cables (Valhalla and Odin excepted)?

I got a pair of Shiva power cables that I have been testing with my Spires. I know you said you wouldn't bother with the Shivas, but... anything more than that seems too expensive for power cables to me. However, my early impressions are that the Shiva cables are - if anything - worse than the power cords that came with my Spires...

I am personally not sold on "better" speaker wire or even worse power cables.without starting a huge debate I have never been able to hear a difference in wires and have never met anyone with real credentials that was not selling them that could confirm for any reason that more expensive speaker wire or power cables would make any difference most of the time they just laugh.If their are people out their that think they make a difference and enjoy them that's really cool but I just cannot believe. the only reason I have bought " better" than best buy monster or whatever is purely for aesthetics or larger gauge.

FISH_MAN said:

I am personally not sold on "better" speaker wire or even worse power cables.without starting a huge debate I have never been able to hear a difference in wires and have never met anyone with real credentials that was not selling them that could confirm for any reason that more expensive speaker wire or power cables would make any difference most of the time they just laugh.If their are people out their that think they make a difference and enjoy them that's really cool but I just cannot believe. the only reason I have bought " better" than best buy monster or whatever is purely for aesthetics or larger gauge.

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In this thread http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9141 I claim to have measured performance characteristics of power cables with my new phono preamp. The measurements showed me that shielded power cords (and not necessarily of a specific brand) reduced the hum and noise coming out of the phono preamp was dramatic, and moreover, the measured noise was being affected by moving other components' power cords around in the air. This indicated that power cords can and do emit electromagnetic noise which can affect some equipment.

In the end, I replaced all but the amplifier's and speakers' power cords with shielded type and the measured noise from the phono went to the abyss, after properly fixing a ground loop that I identified. At this point and with the volume control at 12 o'clock (which is a LOT of gain and above normal listening levels), the phono stage emits just a tiny bit of hiss with no input signal. At full volume, which probably provides a whopping 100-120dB of overall gain for the cartridge, the white noise is loud but with no discernible hum, and if I were to play an LP at that point I would blow up the speakers if not the amplifier first. With the old unshielded power cords plus proper grounding, the hum was clearly loud at this level (again, with no input signal).

Whereas most of the hum (and overall noise) disappeared from the phono stage as the result of proper grounding, the new power cords were measured to offer an additional 15-16dB of extra silence, and the effects are also clearly very audible at the 12 o'clock volume setting. In the end, I did also use an UN-shielded power cord in the amp, but only to match the cosmetics and for the what-the-hell factor.

Your mileage may vary, but this experiment has certainly changed my opinion about power cords, but only with respect to proper shielding.

proper shielding is a real thing I am all for that

FISH_MAN said:

I am personally not sold on "better" speaker wire or even worse power cables.without starting a huge debate I have never been able to hear a difference in wires and have never met anyone with real credentials that was not selling them that could confirm for any reason that more expensive speaker wire or power cables would make any difference most of the time they just laugh.If their are people out their that think they make a difference and enjoy them that's really cool but I just cannot believe. the only reason I have bought " better" than best buy monster or whatever is purely for aesthetics or larger gauge.

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Taking you at your word, that you don't want to start a huge debate

I was just curious as to how many different hi-end speaker cables you have purchased and then done an A/B comparison or better yet a DBT?

And how many hi-end power cables have you purchased and then done an A/B or better yet a DBT? On Amps, components, etc.

I am guessing that you throw power conditioners in with power cables, or maybe not.

But since you said you have never heard any difference in the sound of wire, I was just wondering how many different products are we talking about.

Seriously no offense, and I am not trying to make an argument either way, I am just trying to get a grasp on your personal experience, nothing more.

JMAUSGP said:

Taking you at your word, that you don't want to start a huge debate

I was just curious as to how many different hi-end speaker cables you have purchased and then done an A/B comparison or better yet a DBT?

And how many hi-end power cables have you purchased and then done an A/B or better yet a DBT? On Amps, components, etc.

I am guessing that you throw power conditioners in with power cables, or maybe not.

But since you said you have never heard any difference in the sound of wire, I was just wondering how many different products are we talking about.

Seriously no offense, and I am not trying to make an argument either way, I am just trying to get a grasp on your personal experience, nothing more.

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I have not a/b many cables only a few.

I have 3 Panamax 5500ex power conditioners they are worth the money in my opinion as they do clean up the line noise and help protect your equipment.

I am past the point of caring whether or not someone agrees with me I just think the cables are kind of a rip off. its only a metal conductor thats all. have you ever looked at the wires behind the lugs in your amps or your speakers there is nothing special there.

whatever some people love their wires that cost thousands and more that's cool because at the point we are at its all about excess anyway right.I probably should have stayed out of this thread from the beginning anyway.

FISH_MAN said:

I am personally not sold on "better" speaker wire or even worse power cables.without starting a huge debate I have never been able to hear a difference in wires and have never met anyone with real credentials that was not selling them that could confirm for any reason that more expensive speaker wire or power cables would make any difference most of the time they just laugh.If their are people out their that think they make a difference and enjoy them that's really cool but I just cannot believe. the only reason I have bought " better" than best buy monster or whatever is purely for aesthetics or larger gauge.

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Although I agree somewhat. I disagree with MONSTER or lamp wire , Home Depot extension cord.

I have tried a few esoteric wires and a few home made wires. I have now a set of custom made (home brewed wires that bested the $3K Transparent wires.

With ML you need a wire that can transfer signal through several thin soilid core , preferably Teflon coated wires in a Litz fashion.

Ah yes amigos,

The wire debate returns. My input, FWIW, is that cable does make a difference but you don't need to spend excessive amounts of money to realize the benefits.

Signal Cable, DH Labs, Mapleshade, Tara Labs, Kimber, Anti-cable, Blue Jeans, Audioquest, etc. are just some examples (depending, of course, on system synergy) that offer great sonic value for the buck. I'm confident that there are other manufacturer's that offer a similar price / point value.

So, is Nordost, or any other boutique wire worth the price of admission?

Each person needs to decide, based on an in home audition, with wire fully broken in.

GG

C.A.P said:

With ML you need a wire that can transfer signal through several thin soilid core , preferably Teflon coated wires in a Litz fashion.

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Right on the mark. I went through home auditioning dozens (well maybe not dozens... probably only 8 or 10...it just seemed like dozens) of high end/high priced speaker cables when I first got my Summits and ultimately settled on a wire made by a company called IXOS:

IXOS XHS756 7 GAMMA GEOMETRY 13 AWG & 15 AWG BI-WIRE

What they call gamma geometry is actually a variation on the litz twist.

This wire is a bi-wire bundle offering both low capacitance and low inductance..just the ticket for MLs. It seemed to yield, IMHO, the best combination of bottom end weight and midrange clarity.

Best part is that it's relatively cheap...about $6 per foot. Add to that some really fancy WBT right angle banana connectors and you have "as good as it gets" for under $200 for your system (@8' ea). Since I'm a penny pincher I chose the Parts Express knockoff on the WBT connectors which go for $10/pair vs $28/pair

IXOS also has a non bi-wire 11ga version that goes for $2 a foot.

FISH_MAN said:

I am personally not sold on "better" speaker wire or even worse power cables.without starting a huge debate I have never been able to hear a difference in wires and have never met anyone with real credentials that was not selling them that could confirm for any reason that more expensive speaker wire or power cables would make any difference most of the time they just laugh.If their are people out their that think they make a difference and enjoy them that's really cool but I just cannot believe. the only reason I have bought " better" than best buy monster or whatever is purely for aesthetics or larger gauge.

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My sentiments exactly...biggest ripoff going is expensive cables and
interconnects.

Mantana said:

My sentiments exactly...biggest ripoff going is expensive cables and interconnects.

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Depends on each person's definition of "expensive".

Is $50 for 1 Meter IC too expensive, is $100, is $500, is $1000?

The real "expensive" definition to me in audio is can you tell a difference and is the difference worth it to you? This is dependent on each person IMO. I can tell the difference in my setup between $100 and $500 IC's I have tried both knowing and blind testing. Is the $500 IC worth the difference in sound? Each of us has to decide.

Same applies for all aspects of our lives - cars, boats, homes, furniture, etc. What is TOO EXPENSIVE? Only each of can decide. A friend of mine loves expensive cars - expensive to me is cheap for him. And it applies in reverse for audio between us.

So there are RIPOFF's, as you put it, in all areas of our lives, but then they are of value to others.

DTB300 said:

Depends on each person's definition of "expensive".

What is TOO EXPENSIVE? Only each of can decide.

So there are RIPOFF's, as you put it, in all areas of our lives, but then they are of value to others.

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Well said. Thank you.

I didn't want to start a flame war, nor get into the never ending cable debate with agnostics and believers...:meditate: I was simply posting my own personal experience with Nordost cabling, as I've changed essentially all my cables, and mixed and matched several permutations over the past 8 or 9 months. Take it for what it's worth.

If someone hears no difference between cabling, great! Just think of the money you're saving. If someone hears marked improvements, great! Just think how much better their existing equipment will sound, to them, with better cabling.

I heard what I heard, and I am sticking to what I said.

Could the Shivas make ML's sound worse? Sure. System synergy is always an unknown. Did the Vishnus make my Summits sound better than the Shivas? Yes, but it was a small difference. Could I have been imagining it? Sure. But I'm happier spending some money knowing I have what I consider the best cable I can hear powering my fabulous speakers.

My Arcam tuner has 2 sets of RCA outputs. I plugged a Baldur IC in one, and a Signal Cable IC in the other, fed into my preamp's Aux 1 and Aux 2. I did many A/B tests during the same piece of music. Did I hear a difference? Yes, a little. I liked the Signal Cable better. The Baldur accentuated high freq hiss if the station was a little distant. It also receeded the midrange a bit. Signal Cable sounded better for FM. So I'm not always picking Nordost

I hear a major difference in overall sound with the changes I made. Especially for my phono stage, which is why I posted. I thought others might be interested in my experience. If someone disagrees with what I wrote, no offense taken. Just don't call me gullible, or stupid. I hear what I hear. If someone else doesn't, spend the money on more music! :band:

BTW, I bought all my Nordost cables used. Thank you Audiogon, eBay, and Canuck Audio Mart!

Even as someone who uses some pretty expensive cable on a regular, I'm having a hard time buying that a power cord gave you a 16db increase in signal to noise ratio....

Even the manufacturers don't make those kind of claims.