Apogee Duetta Signature Rebuild

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As long promised, I heard the Apogee Duettas today, refurbished by Graz's own hands no less!

A lot to think about, and compared to my Vistas, very different.

They were in a large room, about 11m x 4.5m and driven by a McCormack DNA-2 amplifier in turn driven by an Arcam C31, Original A9II and Oracle Delphi / SME3009 / forget the cartridge. They were set up about 3m apart (inner edge to inner edge) and about 3 to 3.5m from the rear wall. This obviously made them quite close (no more than 20cm) from the side walls. Toe-in was minimal. It was silent - totally silent.

As for the sound ( and don't forget, I'm comparing to Vistas, not Ascents), I'll put it in point form.....

* The bass was the best......wow, huge, authoratitive, and best of all deep! Like there was a sub, except it was crystal clear and uncoloured and fast. The dyamic woofers are the worst part about our systems I'd say! Equal (but different) to that of the CLX.

* The midrange was clean and clear, but a bit more laid back that my Vistas. I'd put it at more "polite" and the Vista more "showy". I prefer the Vista obviously, but maybe that's just because I'm used to it. Sometimes the more restrained Apogee shocked me with its realism, but all up, I prefer the Vista. It dances out into the room much more.

* The top end really let it down. Really. Not extended at all. Quite clangy and clashy. It really detracted from the performance for me. While the Vistas are airy and fast, these seemed bogged down, slow and quite harsh in a way. Could it have been that McCormack or the Arcam? Especailly since I'm used to a valve preamp. Not sure.

* Imaging was a mixed bag. It was big - much bigger tham I'm used to, and very stable, however it was not so defined and accurate. The reach out and touch the performers was not there - there was more of a "wall of sound" effect. It also didn't extend too far beyond the speakers / room, whereas my Vistas do. Image wasn't very 3D either - certainly not as much as the Vistas.

* Dynamics were not what I'm used to with the Vistas - don't get me wrong, the bass had impact, but the rest of the spectrum just didn't have that startling effect.

* The Duettas were capable of resolving slightly more detail across the audio band. I felt like I was hearing more of the recording, if that makes sense.

* Duettas win on the value for money stakes that's for sure - he got the Apogees a few years ago for only $2,000 and another $2,000 for the refurb - my Vistas were $8,000! Double the price!

How's that? Any questions?, and I'll do my best to answer them.
 
Adam PM'd me this review first, and I said he could post it. Here is my PM'd reply:

Hi Adam,

Thanks for that - way more than I expected, to be honest!

With regards to what you thought - well, believe it or not I have never heard a pair. So if I don't like them, I'll simply sell them on. It costs $2000 US just for the parts. But over here we have to pay for shipping and import duty (25%), plus the labour costs. Plus you have to buy an old pair anyway. It is costing me £3800 - still less than some Vistas.

I have heard/read a lot from Graz recently on the Apogee website about how he really likes them with tubes. I'd hope that'd tame the top end, but Arcam kit sounds rough to me, and I have no clue about the amp you heard, beyond online review.

To be honest I can easily make my Ascents sound pretty off with the wrong partnering equipment - no trouble doing that, really.

Have you ever read Martin Colloms review of them? If not, ask me for a link. Be interesting to see how valid you think it is after having heard them.

From my experience of the Analysis Omega, similar in many ways to the Duetta, I think the image is flatter than my Ascents. But they had no treble issues (never heard of this as a complaint with the Duetta) and had many positive attributes I really liked.

I wouldn't post your review as a single thread, but I will post it on my Duetta thread if you like. Then I'll contrast it with my own review when I get them. Be really interesting to see if I agree with what you have said.

All the best,

Justin
 
Adam - check post #15 of this thread for the reviews you asked for in your PM.

To answer another of Adam's PM'd points - DS's are NOT hard to drive. Infact they will be easier than Ascents at HF by some margin - no stupidly low impedance issues - and a generally much flatter impedance characteristic throughout the whole frequency range. Graz has seen the spec for my amps and THEY WILL drive them. I know of no better authority on this.
 
Well, slow though it may be, there has been some progress...

It appears that the magnets were never positioned that well in the factory. Therefore, quite a few have been removed using a home made tool and re-set into the correct position.

The covers have been re-sprayed in Mercedes Benitoite Blue. The restorer was never keen on this colour, but having seen it done, has changed his mind, saying they look very nice. No pics of them yet, though.

The stands have been cleaned, and we're going to use some big washers to cover the marks where the spikes go. Saves £500 for a new set from Graz.

No idea when they will actually be finished, hopefully not too long now, but I have decided on some custom built freight/shipping boxes just in case they need moving, for whatever reason, so I expect that'll slow things up.

Also, the restorer has decided that some additional crossover mods are the way to go, adding £180 more to the build. So in addition to a load of Clarity caps, there will now be some brand new inductors and resistors too. After seeing Adam's review, he seemd a bit confused about the treble remarks, stating that he thought ribbons deliver about the best treble quality available - a matter of opinion, obviously. Somehow, though, I think the extra crossover mods stemmed from Adam's statements...:D

Here's a link to some Duettas the restorer did recently, in Porsche Atlas Grey, I believe: http://s608.photobucket.com/albums/tt167/Mike37_bucket/

First pic magnets out (crossover appears to have been completely removed), 2nd back in. Quote from the restorer: "There are 42 rows of 3 magnets in each speaker = 126. I had to take around 30 off the left speaker, and 40 on the right. I used cardboard spacers to make sure the magnets stayed true while the epoxy set."
 

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Well, got this pic today from the restorer - a re-sprayed cover. It suffers from flash - they'll look darker in the flesh or by the lighting in my room - much more like the bottom of the cover does in the picture. When they're done I'll take some better pictures.

Eventually they'll arrive - everything comes to he who waits... well, so they say;)
 

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Now, now - no need for sarcasm...;)

Oh BTW - you can now buy self-install bass ribbons from ebay, Germany - so now you really can do it alone. You'd need to get the MRTWs from Graz, but they're self-install anyway. Big row about it, though, and I am not recommending you do that. Check: http://www.audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/007932.html
 
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How long is a piece of string, Gordon?

It's a good job I still like my Logans, that's for sure.:)
 
Now, now - no need for sarcasm...;)

Oh BTW - you can now buy self-install bass ribbons from ebay, Germany - so now you really can do it alone. You'd need to get the MRTWs from Graz, but they're self-install anyway. Big row about it, though, and I am not recommending you do that. Check: http://www.audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/007932.html

Wow that was some read.

Seriously, your speakers are going to be fantastic and I admire and appreciate the time, money and effort that has gone into restoring them. Mine have been sitting in my back yard shed for over 10 years. One day I may actually restore them or sell them to someone who will appreciate them. I just have to many projects and to many speakers to tackle that job at this time.
 
Rumour has it that these will show up on the 20th of Feb. Rumour, that is:D

Everything comes to he who waits... well, maybe:)
 
Justin,

I admire your patience.

Echoing Jeff's comment, I truly hope these puppies blow you away.

Look forward to your observations once you've had a chance to audition in your home.

Gordon
 
Justin,

Will your existing amplification drive them adequately, or will you have to shop around for a new amp? Sorry for asking if you have already answered the question previously in the thread.
 
Justin,

Will your existing amplification drive them adequately, or will you have to shop around for a new amp? Sorry for asking if you have already answered the question previously in the thread.

Plan A: hit them with the 211s. I think they will drive them. The DS's are a fairly flat 4 Ohms - nicer for a tube amp than the Ascents. I'd be amazed if it doesn't handle them. I've had the 211s driving the 83.5 DB 4 Ohm M&Ds to high volumes fairly nicely. The DS's are 86DB.

Plan B: try the 230 Watts into 4 Ohms Behringer cheapie.

Plan C: invite some UK audiophiles around. They will come - the prospect of a fully restored to better spec than the original effort DS will be too much for them to resist. There's already a Chord amp booked in... there will be more.;)

Should get a "completed" pic of the DS's tonight. He's currently getting some hours on the ribbons before delivery, and will be building the shipping crates this w/e.

1 year warranty on them.

All - thanks for the kind comments. Unusual around here sometimes:)
 
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Justin, looking forward to your impressions, I've always thought Apogee had a unique look and sound. Always loved a speaker that could destroy an amplifier!
 

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