Summit X smoother than the Spire or just bigger sound?

I think it is a matter of liking...

To my ears, I have not listened yet anything in cone that would make me think to go back to them...all what I had listened and owned, and I am just going to name a few brands, Sonus Faber, Thiel, Synthesis, Unity Audio, Usher, made me ear fatigue after some time (one hour or so)...with ML, I can listen hours and hours without any ear fatigue, and I think it is the transparency and the super clear, crispy sound coming from ML. I can listen every electrostatic model, without starting complaint regarding the size of the instruments, and the air between them. Also the 3 dimension at their sweet spot. To me, all is a matter of liking, you can agreed or not agreed with this...but a diaphragm that weights less than the air that it moves, and no phase shift, because the crossover at the frequency cut for the panel allow it, no tweeter with dispersion problems, no distortion, less than .03% THD, no need to play loud to have the right size of the instruments in my room, are some of the advantages that I get from electrostatic technology of ML. Cone speakers are usually above 2% in THD. It is so easy understand the left hand of a piano player, and also the other musicians that are playing with any featured artist. I am crazy for the sound of ML and I think all we are here in this forum, for what we get and what we do not get from other brands of speakers. ML is not perfect, and usually are just minor flaws compared to others that cost over twice the money and still ML is a winner. Perhaps, your Spires are bad, why don´t you call Jim Power regarding your problem?...it just does not make sense to us, the users, the problem that you are finding...it is not right...ear fatigue is the less thing that they could do...I can not find any other possibility with your problem...I wish you a very happy listening,
Roberto.

there's nothing mechanically wrong with them...like i said,
it's very subtle, and leads to fatigue. We'll see how they
match up with the Sim I7. If i still experience fatigue,
then the Spires just aren't for my ears (at least in 2 channel).
They're very nice for HT.

Mantana said:

here's an update from the guy i've referenced on this post
who upgraded to the Summits:

"I think cones and domes are more musical and accurate. The Summit X's use a different crossover which make them more laid back. The guy that bought my Spires sold them after 2 weeks saying they were fatiguing. He preferred the Vantage."

Maybe it's just the Spire and not the amp ???

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Why are you qouting another persons obsevations without substantiating the relevance / purpose of his / your comments thereof?

GG

Well as I mentioned before, today's overly compressed recordings may be contributing to your listener's fatigue. This coupled with a poor matching of equipment in your system.

If your system is relatively neutral, then you should notice this problem with both speakers. However, most systems (include cabling, etc. in this discussion) are not neutral. We all know that different speakers exhibit different aural characteristics. I contend that in the "wrong" system and with overly compressed recordings the negative aural characteristics of speakers are accentuated.

I didn't noticed your problem when I auditioned the Summits and Spires at home. But I think that my system is relatively nuetral (IMHO) and I don't listen to many overly compressed recordings. So as so many folks have advised you, chose your equipment carefully. Read the reviews (they can be helpful), talk to a few dealers (if any exist in your area) and trust your ears.

Gordon Gray said:

Why are you qouting another persons obsevations without substantiating the relevance / purpose of his / your comments thereof?

GG

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To Robertawillisjr:

Don't worry....i do trust my ears, completely. I know what i'm
hearing and i know fatigue. And you're right about poor recordings...
they wear me down quickly if i don't cut the volume (and remember,
i don't listen to loud music in the first place). Not all music is
audiophile quality, so system matching is crucial.

To G. Gray:

A little context....

For a couple of months, i've been emailing this guy
who owned the Spires. I initially responded to his
Agon ad on buying his Sim I7 integrated. He owns quite
a bit of hi end stereo equipment and appears to have
similar listening tastes to mine. In other words, i respect
his opinion. I've always felt the Spires were good speakers
but needed the right amp to make them soar. On my Montanas,
when i changed from the Classe to the Musical Fidelity A5,
i noticed the sound was more dynamic and sounded more
"live". The A5 is more transparent and maybe a little
brighter than the Classe. It works great with the Montanas.
The Spire is brighter than my Montanas and i've always
suspected that a mellower amp would be a better fit.
Unfortunately, i sold my Classe before testing with the
Spires. But i've always felt the Spire could be an incredible
speaker with the right amp, that's why i had such an
interest in the Sim I7. Maybe there are better matches, but
i need an amp that will sing with both of my speakers. As
i said, i felt the Spires could be great until speaking with
this other guy who has experience with the Spire, Sim I7,
and the Summits. He seems to like the kind of speakers
i like, in fact, he used to own the original Montana EPS's.
So when he made the comment that he had the same
fatigue issues with the Spire/Sim combo as i have with
the Spire/MF A5, well, maybe it's not the amp. When he
upgraded to the Summit Xs, he said they were smoother
than the Spires and not fatiguing. That's why i started
this post. If i didn't trust my own ears, i wouldn't have
just bought a Sim I7. We'll see how they match up with
the Spires. I'm hoping it's smoother and a better
match than my A5. If i experience the same fatigue, i'm
going to give up trying to find "the right amp" for
the Spires (that'll be 3 amps i've tried). I'll sell them or
mostly use for HT.

There is no difference between the Spire and the Summit X that would lead the former to cause ear fatigue while the latter didn't. Sorry. Listening fatigue is generally caused by excess output between 1 and 4 khz. (a frequency range where the Spire and the Summit X should be virtually identical). The crossover frequencies for both speakers are well below this range. The crossovers are not that different between the two. The biggest difference is between the bass output, and that should not have any effect on fatigue.

I haven't auditioned these speakers so I can't offer much firsthand knowledge of their sound, but I do know enough to know there is no reason one should be fatiguing and the other not. The panels on the two are virtually identical and that is where the fatigue would come from. More likely it is a room acoustic issue or a problem with associated equipment. Just my opinion, of course.

I could see the spire causing wallet fatigue lol

Rich said:

There is no difference between the Spire and the Summit X that would lead the former to cause ear fatigue while the latter didn't. Sorry. Listening fatigue is generally caused by excess output between 1 and 4 khz. (a frequency range where the Spire and the Summit X should be virtually identical). The crossover frequencies for both speakers are well below this range. The crossovers are not that different between the two. The biggest difference is between the bass output, and that should not have any effect on fatigue.

I haven't auditioned these speakers so I can't offer much firsthand knowledge of their sound, but I do know enough to know there is no reason one should be fatiguing and the other not. The panels on the two are virtually identical and that is where the fatigue would come from. More likely it is a room acoustic issue or a problem with associated equipment. Just my opinion, of course.

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I hope you're right, then the Sim I7 may be the answer, but since
you haven't heard either speaker and i've been talking with a
guy who's owned both and having access to Sim, Primare,
Mcintosh and other amps, speaking of crossover points
is meaningless as far as i'm concerned. How do they
actually sound? Again, hope you're right and the Sim
tames the harshness and i'm finally a happy camper.
I auditioned the Vantages at the dealer before buying the
Spires unseen. I never listened to the Vantages long enough
to get fatigued.

Ultimately, they both use the same panel and are going to sound pretty much the same from 1000 hz. on up. So there is something else at play that is causing your edginess. Especially given that there are quite a few happy Spire owners on this forum, it seems that something else is amiss here. My guess is if you put a full-range acoustic absorber panel behind your spires, the edginess you hear would disappear. This would be a lot cheaper than upgrading to Summits. You don't mention what all of your other equipment is, but that could also play into the harshness you are hearing. Taming room acoustics is going to make a bigger difference to the quality of your sound than upgrading from Spire to Summit, in my opinion. Good luck with it.

I find it odd that if you liked the Vantage, you find the Spire "harsh". After living with Vantage, Summit, Spire and Summit X for almost 2 years now continuously, I see going up the ladder with ML to just reveal progressively more music and play louder.

I haven't heard that much if any change in tonality or overall sound at the high end of the spectrum.

Mantana....Tonepub and Rich are correct.... as a Spire owner for the past six months and a Vantage owner for three years prior, Rich's explanation is spot on.

Outside of room acoustic changes and or upstream componetry the claims are purley bogus...unless of course there were problems (functional) with the Spire's.

tonepub said:

I find it odd that if you liked the Vantage, you find the Spire "harsh". After living with Vantage, Summit, Spire and Summit X for almost 2 years now continuously, I see going up the ladder with ML to just reveal progressively more music and play louder.

I haven't heard that much if any change in tonality or overall sound at the high end of the spectrum.

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I said i only auditioned the Vantage and then ordered the Spire
(due to my room size). I did like the Vantage but i only listened
for an hour or so, thru a Butler amp and unknown preamp.
The Spires became fatiguing after a few days, more on
certain types of music than others (rock, electronic music).

If you feel the Logan line has essentially the same smoothness...
well, that's why i asked the question. Would an upgrade to Xs
solve the problem or is it something else in my system that
needs changing. Most on this site say changing to the Summit
probably wouldn't make a difference. That's what i was looking
for, so next step is to change the amp. After that i give up. I
hate having 2 sets of speakers & 2 amps dominate my
living room...something's gotta go.

Hmmm... I agree with Rich too with regards to differences between the Summit and Spire. However, consider:

1) Maybe you just don't like MLs. It's not beyond the bounds of reason. They will throw a high resolution sound packed full of detail at you. That in itself can be tiring or fatiguing. I know sometimes I'd rather listen to something of lower resolution - just because it's easier and requires less mental effort. However, when I want my mind blown a bit and am in the mood, there isn't much else than can satisfy with such stunning detail.

2) Are you using CD as a source? As FISH_MAN said earlier, I can listen to my TT for much longer periods before getting tired of my system. And my CD/SACD source is a very good one.

3) Changing amps will make a big difference, so it's not an avenue to rule out. You can get a very smooth mid range from some tube amps - so that might be a good cure. Some tube amps are ridiculously smooth - Jadis, for instance. Plug a JA80 into the Spires, and I'd be amazed if you could complain about "hardness" fo any kind, given a good source. However, a bad CD source plus the wrong amp can sound hard to very hard, as you identify.

Good luck.

Hello,
Sometimes room synergy is a peculiar, mystical thing. Even though logic and experience may dictate that the next model up will always be better, sometimes it is not in a particular application. The number of people here who prefer the Spire over the Summit seems to indicate that.

I have used Vantages now for 2 years without the desire to upgrade. In those two years, the speakers seem to be the only thing that have not been upgraded.
In my application, changing the amplifier has made the most noticeable difference followed closely behind room treatments and source upgrades. In regards to the speaker/amplifier interface, switching back to an Aragon 8008bb has been most satisfying. Many here swear by Bob Carver's designs however.
Cheers,
ML

Different Angle...

While your waiting for the Sim I7 to arrive, try positioning the Spires straight ahead vs inward. Also experminent with different Rake angles to see if this helps: very easy to do if you are using the spikes. Some users have the panels straight up vs angled back.

User211 said:

I know sometimes I'd rather listen to something of lower resolution - just because it's easier and requires less mental effort. .

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How about just turning down the volume? Seriously !

Bernard said:

How about just turning down the volume? Seriously !

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It's not always on 11, Bernard...

I really like those little Scandyna Drops sometimes... they're a good listen.

Mantana,

Is there someone (audiophile) in your area who could listen to your system for a few hours?

Others,

Do you usually get listener's fatigue with your present system during extended listening sessions? If so, don't you think something is wrong?

robertawillisjr said:

Others,

Do you usually get listener's fatigue with your present system during extended listening sessions? If so, don't you think something is wrong?

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I can listen to my system at fairly high volume levels for hours and hours with no fatigue. In fact, I have never experienced listening fatigue with my current system. But then, I have an extremely well-treated listening room with top-notch components connected to my Summits, and I don't listen to a lot of poor recordings or headbanger music.

My guess is that folks who are experiencing listening fatigue with Logans have no room treatments, have the volume set too loud for the room, are listening to poor recordings, have one or more sub-par components in the equipment chain, or some combination of the above factors.

Now, I did experience listening fatigue with my Ascents years ago, but it was when I first bought them and had them hooked up to a cheap Yamaha receiver in an untreated listening room. It really cannot be said enough: the quality of the components in your equipment chain, and the quality of the acoustics in your listening room will make or break your experience with these speakers. ML's are some of the most neutral, transparent speakers out there, but they require a quality signal, proper setup, and good room acoustics to perform up to their abilities.

Rich said:

It really cannot be said enough: the quality of the components in your equipment chain, and the quality of the acoustics in your listening room will make or break your experience with these speakers. ML's are some of the most neutral, transparent speakers out there, but they require a quality signal, proper setup, and good room acoustics to perform up to their abilities.

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Amen to that Rich! :bowdown: