Summit X smoother than the Spire or just bigger sound?

I guess i have to start a new thread...not sure if anyone saw my other
posting (or maybe everyone's just tired of me harping on this).

Spire vs summit x:

Here are some comments i've had with a gentlemen who owns
numerous speakers and just upgraded to the Summit Xs from
the Spires..i'm considering buying his Sim I7:

"I like the Spires a lot but most of my listening is with cones
and domes."

"The Spires do some things great especially in the midrange. but
I did get fatigued after awhile. Maybe my taste in music doesn't fit with the ML's."

"I used the I-7 with the Spires and it had same issues you are concerned about. I do like the Spires but they are not the best all around speaker."

"I have upgraded to the Summit X. They are much smoother sounding than the Spires."

"The Spires are more edgy. I am not getting fatigued at least not at the moment with the Summit X's."
__________________________________________________ _______
This was my comment to someone who's considering the Spire
versus the older Summit:

"So, you might want to try and audition both before buying. I own the
Spires and was considering selling them until i tried them as
home theater speakers. I think they're fantastic in HT. They can
sound really good in 2 channel also, but if you like rock music
they can be a little harsh at times, a little too electronic sounding,
at least to my ears. It may be i don't have the right amplifier to
complement the Spires... Jeff at Tone Audio thinks the Sim is
a good match, but the guy i refer to above says he was still
experiencing some edginess even with the Sim I7, so it just
might be the characteristic sound of the Spires. Only you can
judge which is preferable."
_________________________________________________

I am now considering a possible upgrade to the Summit X and
selling the Spires. Anyone else find the Summits overall are
smoother? Try as i might, i can't seem to tame the edginess
of the Spire on 2 channel music.

Mantana said:

I guess i have to start a new thread...not sure if anyone saw my other
posting (or maybe everyone's just tired of me harping on this).

Spire vs summit x:

Here are some comments i've had with a gentlemen who owns
numerous speakers and just upgraded to the Summit Xs from
the Spires..i'm considering buying his Sim I7:

"I like the Spires a lot but most of my listening is with cones
and domes."

"The Spires do some things great especially in the midrange. but
I did get fatigued after awhile. Maybe my taste in music doesn't fit with the ML's."

"I used the I-7 with the Spires and it had same issues you are concerned about. I do like the Spires but they are not the best all around speaker."

"I have upgraded to the Summit X. They are much smoother sounding than the Spires."

"The Spires are more edgy. I am not getting fatigued at least not at the moment with the Summit X's."
__________________________________________________ _______
This was my comment to someone who's considering the Spire
versus the older Summit:

"So, you might want to try and audition both before buying. I own the
Spires and was considering selling them until i tried them as
home theater speakers. I think they're fantastic in HT. They can
sound really good in 2 channel also, but if you like rock music
they can be a little harsh at times, a little too electronic sounding,
at least to my ears. It may be i don't have the right amplifier to
complement the Spires... Jeff at Tone Audio thinks the Sim is
a good match, but the guy i refer to above says he was still
experiencing some edginess even with the Sim I7, so it just
might be the characteristic sound of the Spires. Only you can
judge which is preferable."
_________________________________________________

I am now considering a possible upgrade to the Summit X and
selling the Spires. Anyone else find the Summits overall are
smoother? Try as i might, i can't seem to tame the edginess
of the Spire on 2 channel music.

Click to expand...

I want to preface my comments by saying that I have not heard the Summit X or the Spire. However, I have heard various models of logans driven by a variety of amps - low power ss, high power ss, cheap ss, cheap tubes, expensive tubes, etc.


There are usually many causes to produce various effects. Without experiencing your or your friend's setup, here a few thoughts:

- I am not sure what you mean by edginess. The first thing that jumps to mind is the SS amp clipping. Can you try another amp (or 2 or 3!) with more power, or try tubes like the BAT vk55 (the sweetest tube preamp for the logans - CAN'T IMAGINE this thing being edgy!)? The amps make such a huge difference in my experience, and to my taste and experience, the more power the better.
- Extra bass from the Summit X may shift the perception of the presentation away from the edginess he has experienced.
- Of course, there are setup issues as well. Everyone talks about the reflections in the room for obvious reasons. However, "little" things such as the tilt of the speaker can make a dramatic difference. For example, I got a lower chair and had to lean my speakers forward. The more forward I go, the more presence in the midrange and less air in the treble. A few hours of setup time can go along way saving a few grand.


I have no doubt that Summit X is a better speaker than the Spire. Personally, I would play around with the amps and setups before going through the hassle and cost of upgrading.

Good Luck! Have Fun!

I'm totally in agreement with David's observations.

I have heard the "Spires" briefly in a store demo (they were actually set up reasonably well) and have not had the chance to hear the "X".

I'm confident both are great products. Clearly, one has the technology to provide more impact in the mid / low bass area absent the use of subwoofer(s). Given the price difference, whether that's important is something each person has to determine.

I can certainly see that given a smaller room, or listening to material that doesn't require a "bottom foundation", the Spires may be just fine.

And then there's the plethorea of hardware and room acoustic variables.

With all due respect, I personally find the terms "better" or "smoother" to be an oxymoron. It's totally system / room dependant.

GG

The edginess i speak of is a subtle harshness, a sound
that becomes fatiguing after awhile. It's not my amp's
power, it's 250 watts. I've only tried another amp, a
Butler tube hybrid and might try a few others, but as
i stated, the other guy who swapped to the Summits
from the Spires, owns the Sim I7 and experienced
the same fatigue. He also owns Mcintosh, Primare
separates, and others. He's the one that made the
comment about the smoother sounding Summits.
Yesterday, i had a guy auditioning my Montanas and
Spires i just put up for sale on Craigslist. He liked
the Spires but preferred the Montanas. He thought
they were smoother sounding and not as forward.
Myself, i don't mind a forward speaker, but harshness
is hard to take on a long term basis. Like i said, it's
a subtle harshness that just wears on me. If i can
get the benefits of the Logans absent the harshness
by swapping for the Summits, it will be worth it.
Just swapping for a little bigger sound won't
meet my needs.

I have No sense of harshness at all with my Spire's. Myself I can't see where having only one bass driver and slightly higher cross-over to the ESL panel (320 vs. 270hz) will create the harshness you speak of ??

As Gordon said and I concur room enviroment with upstream componetry might be the explanation.

Mantana said:

The edginess i speak of is a subtle harshness, a sound
that becomes fatiguing after awhile. It's not my amp's
power, it's 250 watts. I've only tried another amp, a
Butler tube hybrid and might try a few others, but as
i stated, the other guy who swapped to the Summits
from the Spires, owns the Sim I7 and experienced
the same fatigue. He also owns Mcintosh, Primare
separates, and others. He's the one that made the
comment about the smoother sounding Summits.
Yesterday, i had a guy auditioning my Montanas and
Spires i just put up for sale on Craigslist. He liked
the Spires but preferred the Montanas. He thought
they were smoother sounding and not as forward.
Myself, i don't mind a forward speaker, but harshness
is hard to take on a long term basis. Like i said, it's
a subtle harshness that just wears on me. If i can
get the benefits of the Logans absent the harshness
by swapping for the Summits, it will be worth it.
Just swapping for a little bigger sound won't
meet my needs.

Click to expand...

Hola...some of your problem could be room acoustics too. Do you have anything at their back wall? How new are your Spires, if they do not have at least 200 hours, then you could sound a little bit hard...Spires are wonderful sounding speakers, and my taste, my liking are with ML sound. I like the transparency, the size of the instruments, the air between them, the stage is staggering, and of course they are not perfect. Now, the do have minor flaws, and I have not listen yet any dynamic speaker that offers me all what ML does for the price and the sound quality that I get. Just starting with the crossover at high frequency...there is no way how to match the phase parameters,... with a large panel, with a crossover cut below 400 Hz, no problem with phase shift, alos coherence is another clue here... it is a matter of liking, do your best to treat your room, and the benefit will be super paid for the hours doing it...I wish you a very happy listening,
Roberto.
Roberto.

after owning the vantages the one thing that really surprised me was how mellow the spires where I was not really expecting that. I can listen for hours on end with absolutely no fatigue at all this is of course if its my TT I am listening to.

Mantana,

The only way you will know is to audition a pair in your room with your hardware. If there are issues with your room, your components, your cabling, etc., then it may not matter and you may be just "spinning your wheels".

GG

PS: If you find hard rock fatiguing over time, might I suggest that the culprit may be the recordings and / or the volume level. This suggests that you may be "overloading" the room. Use some good reference jazz vocals (Patricia Barber, Holly Cole, etc.) and see if you have the same impression. Your comment that you love the speaker in HT but have issues in two channel stereo when listening to hard rock frankly makes little sense to me. If you want to listen to head banger music at 100db, get another speaker. In addition, most rock recordings can hardly be considered "reference" material, which can / should be used as a basis for judging a system's tonality.

no...i don't listen to my music at ear deafening levels....really
just moderate levels. Again, i'm not the only one who makes
these observations. Just wondering if anyone else feels the Summit
X's are smoother.

Gordon Gray said:

Mantana,

The only way you will know is to audition a pair in your room with your hardware. If there are issues with your room, your components, your cabling, etc., then it may not matter and you may be just "spinning your wheels".

GG

PS: If you find hard rock fatiguing over time, might I suggest that the culprit may be the recordings and / or the volume level. This suggests that you may be "overloading" the room. Use some good reference jazz vocals (Patricia Barber, Holly Cole, etc.) and see if you have the same impression. Your comment that you love the speaker in HT but have issues in two channel stereo when listening to hard rock frankly makes little sense to me. If you want to listen to head banger music at 100db, get another speaker. In addition, most rock recordings can hardly be considered "reference" material, which can / should be used as a basis for judging a system's tonality.

Click to expand...

A couple of other ideas

Mantana,

Another couple of thoughts.

In my experience, "dialing in" the right amount of bass has a huge influence on midrange body and top end clarity. Try "bumbing up" the 50hz volume control on your Spires by a couple of db. You should hear a significant change. Does this attenuate the shrill you are hearing? If so and if the mid / low bass response becomes bloated and ill defined, back it off in small increments till you find the correct balance.

Secondly, the one instrument that will definitely show a midrange aberation is the piano. Keith Jarrett uses a Steinway I believe. Chick Corea uses a Yamaha. The former has a much fuller sound where the latter is much more percussive. If you can listen to Chick's piano (or any other pianist that uses a Yamaha) without running from the room, you're going in the right direction.

Another useful reference is the sound of massed strings, particularly the violin. If you are familiar with the sound of a symphony orchestra in a reasonably good sounding hall, the strings should sound smooth without any "ringing" while still allowing one to hear the individual instruments within the entire string section.

Another is the sound of a flute. Very difficult to produce accurately given the inherent "breathiness" of the instrument. If your system has issues on a well recorded disc containing a flute, that's another indicator that something is amiss elsewhere in the room / system.

Hope that helps.

GG

I think that good speakers such as the ones in question are often blamed for bad recordings and room acoustics also upstream equipment. its a double edged sword

Not really answering your question, but...

Gordon Gray said:

Mantana,

..."dialing in" the right amount of bass has a huge influence on midrange body and top end clarity.
GG

Click to expand...

I just had this experience with the Spire. I dialed the bass down about -8db just playing around with it, and forgot to reset it.

A few days later I installed a new preamp and thought it was way too forward, "a tad bright" was the polite phrase I used to describe it to the seller, I would say this would cause fatigue after a short while. I didn't get too alarmed because the Spire are new and I'm breaking them in. But the funny thing is I didn't really notice a lack of bass at the time, just the brightness! After about 10 or 20 minutes I decided to fiddle with the bass gain again (still breaking them in and playing around) and turned it up to -2db. This not only increased the bass but also fleshed out the rest of the spectrum and allowed me to relax a bit, which may be what you mean by smooth. The brightness was gone and the sound was very different. I then realized that I had a pretty revealing and detailed presentation going on that was very enjoyable and listenable; not tiring at all. I think I listen at lower volumes than the average joe, louder may be a different story (when I turn it up, it's my wife that is fatigueing!!).

I haven't heard the Summit or the X, but I think the Spire are very good (I think they are worth more than I paid for them!): I can't see there being that much of a difference between the three, but I guess there are, or they wouldn't have made the different models.

Spires vs Summits: I thought the opposite. My favorite local dealer started to carry ML's again. He has Spires and Vistas currrently. I've listened a few times to his "best" setup: Spires, with Bryston monoblocks, Bryston preamp/CDP/phono stage, and JA Michell Orbe SE TT. Their store is in two old houses joined together, so it simulates most peoples room sizes very well, actually somewhat smaller than many here have. I preferred my own system. Didn't tell him though, didn't want to hurt his feelings

I don't like bright sounding systems either, though maybe my middle aged presbycusis has knocked off enough high frequencies that I don't notice as much anymore. I thought the dealer's Spire set up sounded a little rolled off in the highs, and was missing the inner detail my own system has. But bass slam was far better. I heard some wild electronica there and was very impressed overall. Not what I listen to though. Undoubtedly I was hearing the Brystons, and mid level cabling. I've lost some inner detail in my own system with my eVo4 out of commission.

My overall opinion is that the electronics and cabling make such a difference that I can't really form an accurate opinion on the speakers based on these two systems. My vote is for you to keep the Spires, and spend money on several steps higher cabling in whatever taste your ears require. Do it all, IC's, speaker cable and power cables. It made an enormous in my system.

If you still aren't happy with the sound once once you've improved cabling, then consider the Summit X. Cabling won't be a rate limiting step then.

from G. Gray:

"In my experience, "dialing in" the right amount of bass has a huge influence on midrange body and top end clarity. Try "bumbing up" the 50hz volume control on your Spires by a couple of db. You should hear a significant change. Does this attenuate the shrill you are hearing? If so and if the mid / low bass response becomes bloated and ill defined, back it off in small increments till you find the correct balance."
__________________________________________________


Actually, i've always dialed the bass down....currently i'm sitting
in the flat position for HT, but generally prefer the bass at
-5 to -10 for 2 channel. So, i don't think that's the problem. In
the past, turning up the bass made it worse.

Spires

I have a pair of new Spires (few months) and just recently sold my Acoustic Zen Adagios. I really like the Adagios but the Spires won in most areas. The strong point for the Adagios was the midrange which was a little more forward than the Spires, but the Spires have that marvelous resolution.
The highs on the Adagios was also excellent...but again, displayed differently than the Spires, and the soundfield stage is much better with the Spires. The bass is great on the Spires, I sold the Grotto i subs I was using with the Adagios.

Another thing is the Dynamic range the Spires have. In my experminting I have found that some speaker cables will truncate this experience and have found cables that use solid conductors to provide better dynamics and will give a better 'metallic sound' to metal (brass) guitar strings when heard vs nylon strings for example ( I use Audioquest).

Bass...I have both a SS amp and a tube amp, the bass quality is different on both; the SS amp is deep, tight, resolving bass pitch. The bass on the tube amp (120wpc) is very nice but 'rounder' and not does not have the quality of resolution in the bass area. Different music requires different amps (for me and my moods).
Like mentioned above, the right cables can tame a system, I have been experimenting with both IC's and speaker cables. Most any of the Cardas IC's will tame the top end while providing nice resolution, you don't even have to go top of line (read expensive) the Cross series is nice. I also have a pair of inexpensive Canare IC's that work well and a pair of DIY Belden IC's that are very natural sounding.
I remember reading a 'follow up' article on a pair of speakers that were reviewed in Stereoplile. The reviewer asked the maker what he had done to 'fix' the treble region; he responded that he fixed the bass...which then cleared up the hi's.
So, in that light, you might also want to try putting the 50hz control back at zero, instead of thinning down the bass from (~) -5 to -10 and try that for a while.
About two years ago I had a pair of Summits for about two weeks. I played them to break in facing each other at increasing volumns each day while I was at work. After the two weeks break in I sat and listened, they sounded a little boomy or sluggish in my room (26x14x8)...probably still needed more break in. But they did nothing for me, so I sold them. The Spires are more lively a speaker and for me, right now, are the speaker of choice.

I use a tube preamp and just picked up a Sonic Euphoria PLC which is Extremely natural sounding...especially in the top end.
Since the ESL's are so revealing, the Spires are probably hi lighting something
in your system causing the hardness your experiencing, more detective work is required on your part. Do you have a SS preamp? How's your CD player?
I installed opamp sockets in my CD player and have tried many different opamps. The originals were a little harsh at higher volumn, I settled on the OP627/637 which as warmer sounding but with great resolution.

from Wings:

"Since the ESL's are so revealing, the Spires are probably hi lighting something in your system causing the hardness your experiencing, more detective work is required on your part. Do you have a SS preamp? How's your CD player? I installed opamp sockets in my CD player and have tried many different opamps. The originals were a little harsh at higher volumn, I settled on the OP627/637 which as warmer sounding but with great resolution."

_________________________________________

I don't know what an opamp is, but i have Musical Fidelity A5
integrated and CD player, Audio Magic power cords and
interconnect, and Audioquest Bedrock cables. The MF
integrated is SS, the CD player has tubes. My ears may
just be more sensitive to hi frequencies and the Logans
may need really fine tuning with the associated electronics.
I really like them in home theater where the clarity and
quickness really excels...not so crazy for 2 channel though.
I don't experience the fatigue in HT since a lot coming
across is dialog, rather than music, but i must say they're
fantastic HT speakers. I'm thinking of buying a separate
amp for 2 channel audio with my Montanas and using
the MF A5 for 2 channel HT with the Spires.

If you listen to today's popular music (Rock, R&B, etc) the recording is most probably over compressed and this will cause fatigue. Visit www.steve.hoffman.tv/forums and search for compression. There is a ton of information and discussion about this problem with modern recordings.

If you have an older CD, try that. Your may hear other problems, due to the equipment and processes used in the 70's and 80's but those recordings are usually not overly compressed.

wings said:

I installed opamp sockets in my CD player and have tried many different opamps. The originals were a little harsh at higher volumn, I settled on the OP627/637 which as warmer sounding but with great resolution.

Click to expand...

Since you are playing with op amps you may want to also try the ones from Burson that are made using discrete components, and available from partsconnexion.com. I have no experience with them, just what I read on the web site. They are very expensive.

__________________________________________________


"Actually, i've always dialed the bass down....currently i'm sitting
in the flat position for HT, but generally prefer the bass at
-5 to -10 for 2 channel. So, i don't think that's the problem. In
the past, turning up the bass made it worse.[/QUOTE]


Mantana,

If I am understanding you correctly per the above, you adjust the 50hz knob -5 to -10 db when you are listening to two channel. There's no reason why you should have such a disparity between the two (HT and two channel) listening experiences.

Out of curiousity, how do you decide what level of attenuation is best and how do you expect to reach some consistent conclusion (shrillness, etc) given the variability of those settings?

If that is the case, I don't know what to say. I can make absolutely miniscule adjustments on my Summit bass x-over and can clearly hear the impact, for better or worse.

Good luck with your issue but based on what you've said, I don't believe the issue is with the ML's.

GG

Gordon Gray said:

__________________________________________________


I don't believe the issue is with the ML's.

GG

Click to expand...

agreed Gordon....room anomolies abound I would think. FWIW, I've backed my Spire's off 3db, which combined with my DD-15 crossing in @ 65hz provides for as flat a response as I can currently get out of my room at this time.