Acoustic Treatments

I've been toying with the idea of adding some acoustic treatments to my room. I've always had it in the back of my mind to add some treatments. But I've never followed thru. Mainly because I don't know the first thing about room treatments. But lately I've become more interested. A couple of very basic questions: How does one know where and how many room treatments to use?

Also, has anyone heard of, or have any experience with Gik acoustics? http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html

Ummm, we've got a whole Forum section on acoustics here...
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=73

Take a look, then hit us with additional questions. GIK and RealTraps are excellent, and used by many of us.

Quite a few people have used GIK and been very happy.

Oops. You can see how new and unaware I am to this whole room treatment gig. Sorry for posting this in the wrong area.

Waboman said:

I've been toying with the idea of adding some acoustic treatments to my room. I've always had it in the back of my mind to add some treatments. But I've never followed thru. Mainly because I don't know the first thing about room treatments. But lately I've become more interested. A couple of very basic questions: How does one know where and how many room treatments to use?

Also, has anyone heard of, or have any experience with Gik acoustics? http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html

Click to expand...

Hi Jeff, great to see you expressing some interest in this. I beleive it will substantially benefit your setup.

The GIK products are great, company service is also very good.

The other options are from RealTraps, as their MiniTrap HF's are ideal for placing behind ML's.

But I have some interesting ideas for your room, based on looking at your pics.

Depending on how much custom woodwork you're willing to go for, there is an option of redoing your front setup to achieve the following:

• Raise the center channel to a usable height
• Place the sub in a better position (centered under the theater, or 1/3 along the front wall)
• Provide management of the rear wave energy from center and Prodigies.
• Totally hide the fact that there might be any acoustic treatments on that wall.

Interested?

Hi Jonathon.

Yes, I'm interested! This is foreign territory for me and I greatly appreciate your assistance.

Regarding your excellent suggestions:

• I've always thought about raising my center channel speaker. Unfortunately, there's no where for me to put it.
• My room is tight. Not a lot of space to work with. All my equipment is in another room. Again, not sure where to move the sub.
• Right over my head...
• As of now, I have no treatments on my wall. I have a painting, and some other stuff on the walls. Nothing that actually absorbs sound though.

I know it sounds like I have objections, but I'm just trying to get answers.

Thanks again for taking the time.

Jeff.

Hi Jeff,

I was thinking of a ‘built-in’ design that would cover most of the front wall, providing a support for your TV and the Center that would allow the sub to be better positioned.

The treatments would be integrated into this entire structure and be ‘hidden’ by cloth covering (in color of your choice and replaceable over time thanks to fabric capture tracks).

This is driven by the fact that your room is indeed tight, and you need to maximize the use of the space, so a custom support and concealment system would do the trick.
I’ll draw up some sketches and post them by tomorrow.

This is such a common setup need, that I might as well share it with everyone.

But if all you want to do is improve the sound without too much effort, the simplest is to add a pair of Minitrap HF’s behind each of your prodigies. Guaranteed instant benefit.

Cheers,

Hi Jonathon.

As cool as a "built-in" design would be, I think that might be a bit too much. I don't want to wall mount my tv because I would then sit too far away from it. I am thinking about wall mounting my center channel above and back from my tv, similar to Seth's. Any opinions or suggestions?

I most definitely need to maximize space. Where would you put my sub? I've gone over this in my mind again and again. I just can't seem to find a more suitable place.

Drawing up some sketches? Jon, that is too cool. Thank you for taking the time and "walking" me thru this.

What are minitrap HFs? Do I just place them behind my Prodigies? Any other speakers?

Can't wait to hear from you!

Jeff.

Waboman said:

Hi Jonathon.

As cool as a "built-in" design would be, I think that might be a bit too much. I don't want to wall mount my tv because I would then sit too far away from it. I am thinking about wall mounting my center channel above and back from my tv, similar to Seth's...

Click to expand...

You could always use a cantilever mount, where the TV can be pulled out, or pushed back, as desired. That's what I did. I ended up mounting absorption panels behind my HDTV, as that significantly improved my overall soundstage.

Waboman,

It sounds like the first thing you need to do is a little research, so that you understand a little more about acoustic treatments and what they are supposed to accomplish. One place to do this is on this forum. There are numerous threads (not all of which are in the acoustic treatments section -- some of them predate that section) on this forum discussing acoustic treatments and Logans.

Another place that offers a lot of information is Ethan Winer's website: RealTraps Go to that site and then click on the tab at the top of the page titled: Acoustics Info. Lots of good information on that site.

I agree with Jonathan that your most bang-for-the-buck will come from placing two full-frequency absorbers on the wall behind your prodigies. This could be the HF Mini Trap, or it could be a similar performing treatment from another company. Many are happy with the products from GIK Acoustics. Just make sure that it is a panel that can absorb fairly evenly from about 250 hz. on up to 20,000 hz. Many traps are reflective in the mids and highs, and that is not what you want behind your speakers to dampen the rear wave.

The next best thing you can do is put some bass traps in any corner that you can put them in. This will help your bass response tremendously. A note about your subwoofer placement: There is no ideal spot or easy formula for the best placement from a sound perspective. There will be several spots that are close to ideal and they will be different for every setup and every room. Here, you just have to experiment, experiment and experiment to get the most ideal placement. Avoid placement directly in a corner because then you get a horn-type megaphone effect which is not normally ideal. Lots of information available on the web regarding proper subwoofer placement, but it is really as much an art as a science, I think.

Good luck with it.

Hi Rich.

Yes, it's obvious I need to do some research. Like I admitted before, this is foreign territory to me.

I really appreciate the guidance, help and links you provided. I will probably end up buying 2 Mini Traps in the future. We recently got back from our family vacation and I need to pay that down first. I know, it's always something. Now when I get the Mini Traps, do I simply place them on the wall directly behind my Prodigies?

What do you guys think about wall mounting my Theater center channel speaker above my tv? It will be almost flat against the wall and a couple of feet behind the tv and my Prodigies. How will that affect the sound? Right now, it's buried in a cabinet. Which is the lesser evil, so to speak?

Thanks.

Jeff.

Waboman said:

Now when I get the Mini Traps, do I simply place them on the wall directly behind my Prodigies?

Click to expand...

Yes, and HF type MiniTraps are best for that. The standard type for corner bass trapping reflects mids and highs a bit. For placing behind ML speakers you want the HF type that absorbs mids and highs too.

--Ethan

Ethan, thanks for the tip on the HF type traps. That's what I'll end up getting.

Still trying to decide whether or not to wall mount my Theater center channel.

Hi Jeff, well, I had a busy weekend, so no drawings.

But to answer your questions about the Theater placement, I’d say the options are:

• Raise the theater so the bottom of the center speaker is even with the bottom of the Prodigy ESL panel
• - Which might make the TV screen be too high
• Place the Theater above the screen
• - Trying to put the speaker within the height of the Prodigy panel, not above.

Either way, the area behind the theater needs to be treated with absorbent materials.
If doing the over-the-TV thing, then a platform, hung from the wall could be constructed to integrate the center channel support and the acoustic treatments for it.

Waboman said:

Ethan, thanks for the tip on the HF type traps. That's what I'll end up getting.

Still trying to decide whether or not to wall mount my Theater center channel.

Click to expand...

Hi folks

I've been going through a similar quandary. The GIK panels are a lot cheaper than RealTraps so I am leaning that way. Also, most forums say that you cant have enough Bass traps in a room. If that is the case, isnt it better to put a 48 x 24 x 6" GIK Bass Trap behind the Logans (I have summits)?

As background, I am creating an "HT wall" (200" x 130") in my family room. The HT wall will have a 60" Kuro Plasma and a drop down 110" screen that will drop down in front of the Kuro for night time viewing. Based on the above asusmptions, the room treatment I am planning is:

a) a 48 x 24 x 6" GIK Bass Trap behind each summit
b) 2 48 x 24 x 6" GIK Bass Traps and a 24 x 24 x 6" Bass Trap placed across the top of the room (i.e. running the entire length of the HT wall, above the Plasma and above the drop down screen). The small panel would be put in a diamond pattern in the middle of the 2 longer panels to provide an aesthetic break
c) GIK Corner bass traps in every corner of the room
d) Creative art prints covering all the acoustic panels. See here. http://www.dpi-sf.com/fabric_printing.htm I spoke to these guys. For $8 per square foot, they will print ANY print on speaker cloth, acoustically transparent cloth to cover the panels and make them art panels. I am thinking of taking some dark, family photos, diffusing them to make them abstract and printing those on the panels. or maybe a jackson Pollack/Kandinsky print

Any thoughts on the above? Any reason why a Bass Trap isnt a better option behind the logans than the Real Traps HF panel?

thanks
adanny

adanny said:

Any thoughts on the above? Any reason why a Bass Trap isnt a better option behind the logans than the Real Traps HF panel?

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Yes. It is a much worse option, actually. Bass traps are designed to absorb heavily in the bass region, but the absorption falls off greatly above about 500 hz. Some (I'm not sure about the GIK) are even reflective in the higher frequencies due to their design. The ML panels' rear wave has a frequency range from about 250 hz. on up to 20,000 hz. So if you are just absorbing from 250 hz. to 500 hz., then you are not doing anything to tame the reflections from 1000 hz. to 20,000 hz, which will result in a muddying of your soundstage and imaging.

Bass traps have their place in the home theater (basically in every corner you can fit them in). But they are not properly designed to dampen the rear wave of an electrostatic panel adequately. For that task, you need a panel that is designed to absorb relatively evenly throughout the entire audible frequency band.

Rich said:

Yes. It is a much worse option, actually. Bass traps are designed to absorb heavily in the bass region, but the absorption falls off greatly above about 500 hz. Some (I'm not sure about the GIK) are even reflective in the higher frequencies due to their design. The ML panels' rear wave has a frequency range from about 250 hz. on up to 20,000 hz. So if you are just absorbing from 250 hz. to 500 hz., then you are not doing anything to tame the reflections from 1000 hz. to 20,000 hz, which will result in a muddying of your soundstage and imaging.

Bass traps have their place in the home theater (basically in every corner you can fit them in). But they are not properly designed to dampen the rear wave of an electrostatic panel adequately. For that task, you need a panel that is designed to absorb relatively evenly throughout the entire audible frequency band.

Click to expand...

Thats a hugely helpful response, Rich. And so simple, it makes complete sense. Based on your advice, I will put HF absorbing traps behind the MLs. And bass traps in the corners and above the TV screen.

One good response merits another so here is the output of some quick monday morning research...

Question: Will the RealTrap Mini HF, or the GIK acoustic panel or the GIK bass Trap panel provide the most linear absorption from 250 Hz to 20 kHz?

Results: Attached below is a link showing:
a) Performance of the RT HF panel (http://www.realtraps.com/pdata.htm). Data shown is upto 10kHz
b) Performance of the GIK acoustic panel and Bass trap (http://www.gikacoustics.com/absorption.html). data shown is only upto 5kHz
c) Performance of the GIK Bass trap, with data shown till 10kHz(http://www.gikacoustics.com/docs/A06_016_060118_A.pdf)

With the caveat that the data are from different sources, but self reported by both the companies, some conclusions (all for on the wall installamtion):
a) RealTraps Mini Traps HF provides, by far, the more linear absorption from 250 Hz to 10k Hz than any other RealTraps or the GIK panel
b) GIK Bass Trap is actually better for both Bass trapping and High Frequency trapping than the GIK acoustic panel. So if you want to go GIK, go GIK Bass Trap
c) The absolute high frequency absorption above 1k HZ of the RT HF is 50-100% better than the GIK.
d) The low frequency absorption (from 100-250 hz) of the GIK Bass trap is better than the RT mondo or mini on the wall (8-16 Sabins versus 6-15 Sabins versus 1.5-12 Sabins respectively)
e) The ultra low frequency absorption (from 50-100 Hz) of GIK Bass trap is largely the same as the RT mondo and better than the RT mini (1.5-8 Sabins versus 2-6 Sabins versus 0.2-5 Sabins respectively)
The GIK monster bass trap is freported (without data) to be 3x better from 50-100 Hz

Therefore, the implications for ML owners:
1. By far the best option is to put RT Mini HF behing the ML Summits even through they are 3-4 times the price
2. Putting lower cost GIK Bass or Monster Bass panels elsewhere in the room will provide largely the same Bass trapping as the Real Traps Mondo

Thats what Im going to do...

Thanks Rich, and others. Hope my data reading is accurate and helpful to others

adanny

You are welcome. Great analysis.

(I think it's time Ethan started giving me a commission)

Your check is in the mail. :banana:

Waboman said:

Still trying to decide whether or not to wall mount my Theater center channel.

Click to expand...

It depends on the type of display you have. For a wall-mounted flat-panel screen, the speaker should probably be just under the screen. You want it as close to ear height as possible.

--Ethan