Martin Logan Spire - Editor's Choice Hi-Fi News April 2009 - Better Than Summit!

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That's my amateur scientist perspective and I'm sticking to it.

Sweet - nothing wrong with doing what you've done. Also, I must get around to measuring that DSOTM bass...

Anyway, with all due respect, I am going to believe HFN. Here's why:

http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/index.html

Paul Miller is HFN's editor. Looks like he produces test kit and has sold it to the likes of Naim, Arcam and Chord. I reckon he must know what he is doing, or those companies simply wouldn't use it. He has to be an expert, at least, within reasonable doubt. If his kit doesn't work, god help those companies!
 
I understand. 98% of what gets said on this or any other forum is user opinion. No problem with that. But what separates out relevant opinion from useless and even misleading opinion is the use (or lack thereof) of verifiable facts to support one's argument. You keep making the conclusory statement that ML somehow "botched" the introduction of the Spire and Summit X while giving very little in the way of actual fact to back it up.



There are quite a few Summit owners on this forum. How many of them have made "irate" posts about this issue? Very, very few. And just as many (like me and Gordon and others) have said we are very happy with our Summits and could care less about the way ML has introduced these newer products). There was a lot more consternation with ML over how long it took them to get the CLX into production than any of this petty bickering over the release of the Spire and Summit X.

Again, I just don't see any facts in your posts to show how ML really botched any PR here.



That's fine. My point was simply that one could not be said to be objectively "better" than the other. They will simply appeal to different groups of people with different needs and preferences. I needed and wanted a deeper lower end and I have been quite happy with my Summits. The Vantages or Spires just wouldn't have done it for me. Not to say that I wouldn't prefer the Summit X to my Summits. But it doesn't decrease the value of my Summits (to me) to know that the Summit X is out there now.



Again, please explain your reasoning and provide some facts to show what you mean by "they botched it". What ramifications in the used market are you referring to? Summits appear to be priced in the $6,000 range on the 'gon. I paid $10,000 for mine brand new, so they are at better than half their original retail value. Not bad in this market. Very similar to where the Prodigy was after the Summit came out. Nothing there that I can see that supports your perspective. Please enlighten me.

Impassioned to you seemed irate to me. Please accept my apologies.

Opinion and supposition (to which I addressed my lack of facts before making the statements) are what I have and entitled to as long as I don't present them as facts (which I don't believe I did). I stick by my suppositions but am willing to change them when and if any facts are revealed. The timing, lack of explanation and even the rumors of a Summit update path was not (IN MY OPINION) handled well. To me, it was botched. Since this is an open forum, I have a right to voicing my opinion (especially when indicating what it is). You have the right to a different opinion and I respect that.

I think that we have gone beyond the purpose of this thread and won't post anything relevant to this again. I'll stick to thread's intent.
 
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Sweet - nothing wrong with doing what you've done. Also, I must get around to measuring that DSOTM bass...

Anyway, with all due respect, I am going to believe HFN. Here's why:

http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/index.html

Paul Miller is HFN's editor. Looks like he produces test kit and has sold it to the likes of Naim, Arcam and Chord. I reckon he must know what he is doing, or those companies simply wouldn't use it. He has to be an expert, at least, within reasonable doubt. If his kit doesn't work, god help those companies!


That's all well and dandy, so that still leads me to conclusion three, that there must have been a defect. I guarantee that if you had a pair of speakers with a 4db diff per pair it would be a pretty gross error.

That is definitely the kind of thing that measurements are great for confirming.

I just don't know any high end mfr that would let a pair of speakers out the door with a 4db difference between left and right speaker...

So if the person doing the measurements is tip top and the instruments are spot on, then there must be something wrong with the speakers...
 
I just don't know any high end mfr that would let a pair of speakers out the door with a 4db difference between left and right speaker...

The technical report isn't good, by any means or stretch of the imagination. But let's consider a few things here.

1) There are frequency response errors of +/-5.3 and +/- 5dB between 300Hz to 20KHz. On the high side.

2) The channel imbalance stats are for that same frequency range. The frequency response trace looks very peaky and troughy. If each panel is in disagreement at a particular frequency, it's not hard to see why there might be big differences in channel balance at that frequency only, given the frequency response errors. A few Hz up, and that imbalance may be close to zero. Catch my drift? I hinted at it in an earlier post.

3) The uneveness in response is due to panel resonance - so is that metal XStat frame ringing (and the stators themselves too, I guess)? The answer is yes. The ringing is confirmed in the waterfall plots when compared to the frequency response curve.

MLs have always had technical issues when measured by HFN and I believe Hi-Fi Choice. And from memory, the issues reported here are simply and pretty much those that have been reported before.
 
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Having said that, and in the interests of being fair, check the technical report on the Prodigy done by Stereophile. They seem pretty happy...:)

I'd include a link, but the site has just gone down....

Hey, maybe the QC rejects get shipped overseas:D Yeah, I was joking...
 
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Impassioned to you seemed irate to me. Please accept my apologies.

No apologies necessary. I wasn't the one who made the "impassioned" remark. I understand there were a couple of people who were irate over this issue. My point was that it was just a couple of people (and some of them, like you, are not even Summit owners but feel compelled to speak on our behalf). The truth is there are a lot more Summit owners on the forum who just didn't care about it or see it as an issue at all. This belies your notion that a "good number" of Summit owners were irate and no one was happy, proving that ML botched this up. That simply isn't the case.

Also, this is a small community of ML enthusiasts and is not necessarily indicative of the market at large. In other words, things that seem like a big deal after a couple of impassioned posts on this site may not actually be such a big deal in the real world of speaker manufacturing and sales.

The timing, lack of explanation and even the rumors of a Summit update path was not (IN MY OPINION) handled well. To me, it was botched.

I assume by timing you mean that the Spire should not have been released until the Summit was discontinued and they were ready to release the Summit X. Well, I guess maybe there is some merit to that argument. But I also know that things don't always work out that cleanly and nicely in a manufacturing environment. They finished the Spire first and didn't want to wait a few extra months to release it until they could finish the Summit X.

As for lack of explanation, this is standard ML policy and has been for a long time. If this was a "botch" then they have botched every product introduction they have had in the last few years. For that matter, so has Apple and a host of other companies that provide limited information about forthcoming products.

As far as I know, the rumors of a Summit update path started on this site because certain folks at ML made an offhand comment during our tour of the plant that they would provide an upgrade path if it was feasible. This was then taken as gospel by some members of this site and when it didn't materialize, they took ML to task for it. So the obvious flaw here was that ML provided too much information about an upcoming product before they knew how it was going to pan out. Hmmmm? Sounds like they are damned if they do and damned if they don't, from your perspective.

Since this is an open forum, I have a right to voicing my opinion (especially when indicating what it is). You have the right to a different opinion and I respect that.

Why do people have to say this EVERY time someone challenges the basis of their opinions? We are all entitled to our opinion and we all know that, so instead of repeating the obvious, why not provide some information to add credibility to your opinions? If you want people to take you seriously, that is the only way to achieve it. I assume you do want to be taken seriously.

I think that we have gone beyond the purpose of this thread and won't post anything relevant to this again. I'll stick to thread's intent.

Understood.
 
OK - are you ready for this? Ken Kessler, who waxed lyrical over the Summit and has used them daily since 2005, thinks the Spire IS better than the Summit.

This has just come through the post and won't be on the shelves yet... I haven't even read the review - just the summary. Sound quality rating? 86%.

The list price has now reached £7990 here... phew! I'll provide a bit more info from the review later.

Slow to review this speaker or what? Well, at least they got round to it!

Stay cool, Summit owners...:)


In case anyone is still interested, the review in question can be found on the website of Absolute Sounds : http://www.absolutesounds.com/index.php?page=21&product_id=477

I seize the occasion to ask any seasoned ML afficionado how s/he would assess the difference between the earlier Ascent and the current Spire.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts ...
 

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