Martin Logan Spire - Editor's Choice Hi-Fi News April 2009 - Better Than Summit!

OK - are you ready for this? Ken Kessler, who waxed lyrical over the Summit and has used them daily since 2005, thinks the Spire IS better than the Summit.

This has just come through the post and won't be on the shelves yet... I haven't even read the review - just the summary. Sound quality rating? 86%.

The list price has now reached £7990 here... phew! I'll provide a bit more info from the review later.

Slow to review this speaker or what? Well, at least they got round to it!

Stay cool, Summit owners...

Thanks for the heads up on the review and I'll look forward to reading it when it hits the news stands.

I'm not surprised at his conclusion as I could have bought Summits for the same price as the Spires. But after much auditioning in the same room and electronics I preferred the Spires too.

One question, what are some comparative sound quality ratings? Is 86% really good, average, etc.?

Thanks.

I was going to purchase a set of used Summits but so many people whose ears I trust said the Spires are superior (especially when mated with an exceptional sub). I finally went to an audition at a dealer, where the room had been meticulously set up and perferred the Spire (no sub was available). Somehow the Summit was not up to the Spire in the crossover region and the bass of the Spire was just cleaner and a bit faster. Not with the heft of the Summit but preferable.

I am now waiting to compare the Summit X with the Spire.

By the way how many Spire owners use a sub?

By the way how many Spire owners use a sub?



Not using one currently. (Previously used massive REL with Vantage Ascent and SL3s). I like the balance of the uncluttered Spire sound, but could be persuaded provided it doesn't mask the mid in any way nor harm the agility of the bass. May try Velodyne or descent i at some time via home demo.

AHA!!!

Well, that settles it then!

Time for all us Summit owners to hang our heads in shame! :devil:

robertawillisjr said:

By the way how many Spire owners use a sub?

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I do and absolutely love the combination...(Velodyne DD-15)

User211 said:

OK - are you ready for this? Ken Kessler, who waxed lyrical over the Summit and has used them daily since 2005, thinks the Spire IS better than the Summit.

This has just come through the post and won't be on the shelves yet... I haven't even read the review - just the summary. Sound quality rating? 86%.

The list price has now reached £7990 here... phew! I'll provide a bit more info from the review later.

Slow to review this speaker or what? Well, at least they got round to it!

Stay cool, Summit owners...

Click to expand...

Here we go again!

Sure, they should be "better" with the newer crossover technology. But based on what criteria? And when we take the preferences into account - bigger bass vs panel/ bass integration? When we had our Summit - CLS shootout, the Summit was probably the winner, but there was no loser.

Fortunately, we (still) have a pretty liquid market that values both speakers approximately the same: $5000-$5500. All that really matters is that as long as people understand the trade-offs, they can choose.

David Matz said:

Here we go again!

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Indeed we do... zzzzzzzzzzz from that point of view...

I'd post the review in photos... but obviously it's a copyright violation.

There are some interesting point made in the review.

Whilst I have heard both, the Summit a good while ago, there a two things that struck me about the Spire, that I didn't notice with the Summit.

1) My ears seemed to be magnetically attracted to the bass region with the Spire's, because it appeared abnormally good.

2) I thought they sounded more rolled of in the HF than either the Summits or my Ascents. I know it is supposed to be the same panel as the Summit.

Anyway, consider the following points made in the review:

1) ML are lying about sensitivity. Then again, they always have done. Are you reading this ML??? The Spire measures 86.8dB and not the 91dB claimed.

2) The Spire's frequency response does drop towards the HF, and is very uneven around 1.8 to 7 KHz.

3) Pair matching is nothing but poor - at least for the review pair at +/-3.8dB. That is serious in my book. If I had that pair, I'd send them back. Think balance control for how big a discrepancy that is. But then again, I think this is refering to "over the frequency range", so they won't necesssarily sound lopsided. I've always suspected this with the MLs I have owned. There's an easy test for it - just swap the leads on your CD player - does the guitar sound slightly louder, say, out of one speaker?

4) The waterfall plots don't look good and show strong lower and upper treble resonances - but then again, these plots never have looked good for an ML.

There's more nasties, but I'll leave it at that.

In the next post - I'll tell you the nice things...

crossover volume?

David makes a valid point, that being criteria.

One thing I hope the review addresses is the impact of the crossover volume.

I know I can make my Summits sound anemic or very warm / bloated or anywhere in between depending on the 25 and 50HZ knob setting.

That is the one variable that, for me, would be difficult to address when determining the quality and speed of the mid / lower bass presentation and its overall integration with the panel.

GG

User211 said:

I'd post the review in photos... but obviously it's a copyright violation.



In the next post - I'll tell you the nice things...

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Justin, please do. Kessler is rock star, IMO. You are doing a great job summarizing, which does not break any laws.

Len44 said:

AHA!!!

Well, that settles it then!

Time for all us Summit owners to hang our heads in shame! :devil:

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No it isn't. But it may add to the explanation as to why the Summit X. I have normally been an early adopter of audio equipement and we all know what the pros and cons are. Now this is pure speculation but perhaps the people at ML think that whatever they did with the Spire made a better product so they incorporated those upgrades in to the Summit X.

If the economy was better, there would be a pair of Summits in my room. When I first heard them, I was (and am very impressed). They sound great. To my ears in a very controlled space, the Spires sounded better. Which would sound better in my space and with my electronics is something that I will find out this summer. I want to hear the Summit, Summit X and Spires in my room. The dealer is not too happy about it but he will live with it (especially since I have to lay down enough cash for the Summit X's before he moves ).

You have been enjoying your Summits, for the same time period I have been enjoying my Quests but dreaming about the upgrade. You win.

I still maintain that it's going to ultimately be decided by your room and how you want to integrate the speaker into the room.

I haven't read his review yet, does he mention if he still had the summits to compare them side by side?

Totally agree with you Jeff.

For me, too many variables to conclude "this is better than that".

GG

Let me address a few points made thus far...

86%? Take it with a pinch of salt - HFN gave a £150 Project turntable with a cheap cartridge 80%. The important thing is the Editor's Choice award in my view.

Jeff - Ken has owned Summits since he first reviewed them in 2005. Sure sign he loved them is he kept mentioning them after the review in subsequent issues. He knows what they sound like intimately.

He reviewed them with the same Krell S-300i I heard them with.

As for room mating he said he had no trouble in his room even with the single bass control. He thinks the Spire's are more seemless in their integration than the Summits. He also expresses amazement at how they've managed it - given Gordon Gray's point about two woofers and two separate amps.

More later... but one important thing to remember for Summit owner's is that Ken isn't 100% right - he's just human like you and I. He evidentally thinks it's a better speaker than the Summit. There are no absolutes here - anyone is free not to agree...

Personally, I think both speakers are extremely good.

It seems that more people then not agree that the Spire sound better than the Summit. At the very least it is a toss up. This now leads me to believe that ML knew this when the Spire came out so they decided to discontinue the Summit. The fact that the revived the Summit as the Summit X and at such a higher price leads me to think that the X is now clearly better than the Spire.

I guess only time will tell. I cancelled my order for the Spire and have now ordered the Summit X. It will likely be 2-3 weeks before they come in. I won't have the Spire here to compare but I have quite a bit of experience with the Spire and should be able to tell any differences.

I would say that once you get to the vantage most of the sound is the room. most of the rooms on this site probably sound pretty bad mine included I think once you get half way decent amps and source the bottleneck really is the room.that being said I don't really think that their is any reason to buy a summit or summit x until you have a killer room ! lets face it people a great room for your speakers with proper dimensions and space is really the most expensive part.I have been in rooms that make modest gear sound beautiful

FISH_MAN said:

I don't really think that their is any reason to buy a summit or summit x until you have a killer room ! lets face it people a great room for your speakers with proper dimensions and space is really the most expensive part.I have been in rooms that make modest gear sound beautiful

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I'm not really sure how my Spires would sound in a great room, but they sound a lot better in the room they are in than any of the other speakers I've tried in there.

their will be differences. but I think especially between the spire and summit that their wont be much unless the room is really good maybe including the vantages in this argument was a mistake

Actually, no more from this review. If you want to read it, buy the magazine. Some people make a living from it, after all.

It's a good issue. And I don't want to undermine those I hold in high regard.

FISH_MAN said:

I would say that once you get to the vantage most of the sound is the room. most of the rooms on this site probably sound pretty bad mine included I think once you get half way decent amps and source the bottleneck really is the room.that being said I don't really think that their is any reason to buy a summit or summit x until you have a killer room ! lets face it people a great room for your speakers with proper dimensions and space is really the most expensive part.I have been in rooms that make modest gear sound beautiful

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Amen!

Having spent the past year focusing on room acoustics, it's very clear the room plays a huge role in overall frequency response, soundstage imaging, and depth. IMHO, in the 2+ years I've had Summits, their sound has improved from a "B" to an "A-" just from tweaking their positioning and adding various room treatments. My only significant hardware change was upgrading to Au24e speaker cables, but the room treatments had far greater impact. No need to shell out big $$$ for the latest and greatest ML design, until you've first optimized your room as much as possible.

That being said, I wish I could demo a pair of Spires in my room, just to satisfy my curiousity!