Panel Height

This may be a simple yes or no question, but none the less if the end result is a proper setup then I needed to ask. As you can see on my members page there are several acoustic panels from ATS Acoustics hanging on the walls. The question is: How high off the floor should these be placed? Behind my Vantage's there is a 2'x4' 4" thick panel approximately 21" from floor to panel bottom. The same size panels are in the front two corners approximately half way between floor and ceiling. On the side walls the 2'x4' 2" thick panels are approx. 28" from floor to panel bottom. The same measurements are on the backwall panels as the sidewalls'. Why did you hang the side/backwall at a different height from the front 4" versions? I don't know exactly, thought it would look better but it doesn't really matter. I have been putting off this question because I really don't want to move any of them, but if it could offer an improvement then it probably should be done. The reason for my question is because the Vantage esl panels begin at approx. 17" off the floor and I was not sure if the panel should be placed at this height as well. If it's not that big of a deal then I am inclined to leave well enough alone. However, I want to cover my bases when it comes to room treatments if they are not properly being used. Thanks for any assistance you can provide and if this has already been mentioned I apologize.

Every system and every room is different but a good place to start is -
If you want to dampen the reflection from the speaker panels, center the sound panels directly where the speaker panel would geometrically project on the front wall, angle of speaker panel included.
If bass is the issue, place the sound panels on their side (the 4' length) on the front wall (actually a few inches forward, 4 to 6 ish) again where the speaker would geometrically appear to project. Biff Bang Pow.

My understanding from Ethan's and Jonathan's comments that the most effective placement options are dependent on whether you are interested in the bass or the other frequencies.

- If you are trapping bass, you are interested in covering as much area as possible with your traps, as the bass waves are huge and are bouncing all over the room. However, if you place the traps in the corners, it will be more effective than just hanging on the wall because this is where the bass waves collect.

- If you are looking to take care of mids and highs, these waves are much more directional. Thus you may want to place the traps directly behind or in front of the panel to take care of those waves.

Thank you guys for your responses. For now I am just concerned with the Vanatage esl panel reflection points. The two acoustic panels on the frontwall are directly behind the speakers according to a laser that I use. The acoustic panel on the side wall closest to the right Vantage speaker is at the first reflection point. On the left side is a window that I treated with a thick curtain and heavy blinds. I always keep the curtains closed when listening. My question is whether or not these panels, or all for that matter, should be lowered to 17" off the floor since this is where the Vantage esl panel begins? There is a 4" discrepency where my esl begins and the front wall acoustic panel begins. There is an 11" difference between the side wall acoustic panel and my esl. Should the acoustic panel be hanging at the same height as the esl panel? Or does this 4"/11" difference really matter? Thanks again for your help and I hope this makes since.

FOUNTAIN said:

Thank you guys for your responses. For now I am just concerned with the Vanatage esl panel reflection points. The two acoustic panels on the frontwall are directly behind the speakers according to a laser that I use. The acoustic panel on the side wall closest to the right Vantage speaker is at the first reflection point. On the left side is a window that I treated with a thick curtain and heavy blinds. I always keep the curtains closed when listening. My question is whether or not these panels, or all for that matter, should be lowered to 17" off the floor since this is where the Vantage esl panel begins? There is a 4" discrepency where my esl begins and the front wall acoustic panel begins. There is an 11" difference between the side wall acoustic panel and my esl. Should the acoustic panel be hanging at the same height as the esl panel? Or does this 4"/11" difference really matter? Thanks again for your help and I hope this makes since.

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Hi Glen,

I’d recommend lowering the two panels directly behind the speakers. As you really do want all the rearward radiated sound to strike some portion of this panel to absorb the highs and mid-bass.

Also, I’d recommend offsetting these panels from the wall by 2”, as that will increase their low-frequency absorption (especially in the critical mid-bass).

When you say “The acoustic panel on the side wall closest to the right Vantage speaker is at the first reflection point.” Is that the bounce point for rear wave reflections or from front of panel?

I usually maintain that having the sidewall reflection point for the rear wave treated with absorption results in a virtual ‘widening’ of the positioning. As you decrease the intensity of the sidewall reflected sound, the ear interprets the ‘wall’ as being further away. Still can’t change the delay of this signal, but by attenuating it, the ear will now perceive more of the direct sound from the front of the ESL.


As for the side wall panels being higher, the ESL panel is angled, so if the angle of coincidence is such that by the time the sound from the ESL hits the wall, the strike point is higher than the physical ESL, then having them higher is OK.
Likewise for the panels in the rear of the room.

If you had Gen1 speakers, then the advice would be to have all the acoustic panels line up with the height of the ESL panels, as they are perpendicular.

Hope this helps,

JonFo said:

Also, I’d recommend offsetting these panels from the wall by 2”, as that will increase their low-frequency absorption (especially in the critical mid-bass).

When you say “The acoustic panel on the side wall closest to the right Vantage speaker is at the first reflection point.” Is that the bounce point for rear wave reflections or from front of panel?

I usually maintain that having the sidewall reflection point for the rear wave treated with absorption results in a virtual ‘widening’ of the positioning.

As for the side wall panels being higher, the ESL panel is angled, so if the angle of coincidence is such that by the time the sound from the ESL hits the wall, the strike point is higher than the physical ESL, then having them higher is OK.
If you had Gen1 speakers, then the advice would be to have all the acoustic panels line up with the height of the ESL panels, as they are perpendicular.

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Hey Jonathan and thank you for your help. Would you still recommend offsetting the rear panels by 2" even if they have the hard wood back? The ones in the corners were made without this backing, but I ordered the two directly behind the speakers with it. Ooops.

When you refer to the rear wave reflection point is that the same wave I am absorbing on my front wall with the two panels behind the Vantages? Or is there another wave that needs absorbing that I have missed? As for the panel in which I was referring too "closest to the Vantage speaker on the sidewall" this is the first reflection point for the front esl panel. Sorry for the confusion.

Also, I do have my esl panels perpendicular to the floor by rasing the back spikes. So this probably does mean I need to lower the sidewall acoustic panels was well. Oh boy the wife is going to love this.

JonFo said:

Also, I’d recommend offsetting these panels from the wall by 2”, as that will increase their low-frequency absorption (especially in the critical mid-bass).

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I was looking at the two panels directly behind the Vantages and was trying to figure out how to mount them 2" or more off of the wall. Is there some hardware that you would recommend to accomplish this? ATS offers mounting hardware for the corners and flat up against the wall but nothing that will provide a 2" gap. I will be ordering the 4" panels from ATS sometime soon without the wood backing, and figured it would be good to go ahead and pick up the brackets if they are readily available somewhere. Thanks again for your help. One more step closer to the "Jonathan's House Of Sound Experience".:music:

Glen

Glen, I mounted mine 3.5 off the wall by using "U" shaped post holders I picked up at Lowes. Couldn't find a stud in the right places so I just used anchors, 3 per bracket to take the weight.

I'm using Real Traps which have a couple bars on the back to engage the U brackets but I'm sure they could still be used for your traps. They hang with a wire like a picture right? Just loop the wire over the U bracket.

Gordon

FOUNTAIN said:

Hey Jonathan and thank you for your help. Would you still recommend offsetting the rear panels by 2" even if they have the hard wood back? The ones in the corners were made without this backing, but I ordered the two directly behind the speakers with it. Ooops.

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Glen, if the panels have a hard back, then there’s no point in offsetting them.
The reason for recommending offsets is to increase the travel time for certain frequencies going through the material, bouncing off the wall behind and coming back through and being attenuated further. But a hard back would prevent that.

FOUNTAIN said:

When you refer to the rear wave reflection point is that the same wave I am absorbing on my front wall with the two panels behind the Vantages? Or is there another wave that needs absorbing that I have missed? As for the panel in which I was referring too "closest to the Vantage speaker on the sidewall" this is the first reflection point for the front esl panel. Sorry for the confusion.

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No problem, when I speak of rear-wave reflection points, it’s generally two that are the most important:

• The direct reflection point right behind the speaker (depending on toe-in)
• And the indirect reflection point on the lateral wall where the reflection from the hit on the front wall bounces (think billiards)

This later one should alos have some treatment. That’s because not 100% of the rear wave gets absorbed by the treatments on the front wall.
It also provides flutter echo absorption and dampening of the mid-bass behind the speakers (the room width mode).

FOUNTAIN said:

Also, I do have my esl panels perpendicular to the floor by rasing the back spikes. So this probably does mean I need to lower the sidewall acoustic panels was well. Oh boy the wife is going to love this.

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Ah, yes I recall you mentioned that. Then yes, I’d recommend lowering the panels. And yes, low WAF to leave screw holes visible

FOUNTAIN said:

I was looking at the two panels directly behind the Vantages and was trying to figure out how to mount them 2" or more off of the wall. Is there some hardware that you would recommend to accomplish this? ATS offers mounting hardware for the corners and flat up against the wall but nothing that will provide a 2" gap. I will be ordering the 4" panels from ATS sometime soon without the wood backing, and figured it would be good to go ahead and pick up the brackets if they are readily available somewhere. Thanks again for your help. One more step closer to the "Jonathan's House Of Sound Experience".:music:

Glen

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Glen I have some extra acrylic mounting brackets that offset the panels from the wall. Drop me a PM and we can deal on them if you are interested.
Otherwise, a picture frame type hanging (a wire from a single point) plus some 2” Styrofoam blocks lightly attached in the corners of the panel will do as well. As long as there’s not a lateral view, it’s invisible.

Thank you Jonathan and Gordon for your help. As for lowering the panels, that has now been finally done. It took several hours and of course some wall patching, but it is now finished.:clap: In fact after taking the panels off of the wall and seeing all the little holes my wife and I decided to go ahead and paint the room while we were in the mood.

I may be ordering two of the bigger bass panels from GIK acoustics and place them in the corner instead of the ATS panels that are there now. The thicker ones from GIK will absorb more of the bass that I am targeting than the ATS version. Then I will move these to behind the speakers and provide an air gap of about 2"-4". This, I believe, will help soak up more of the problem bass as opposed to just adding another 4" ATS panel. Thanks again guys for your help. You guys :guitarman:.