Receiver power enough? ML Vantage/Vista/Source

thanks for everyone's informative replies. I have what i need and a plan for the future with regards to amplification.

here's the latest:

I re-auditioned the purities vs. the vantages at a different magnolia hi-fi location. these were better setup, and I convinced the guy to set the bass level to "flat" for the puritys (instead of the +3dB they had it at). They sounded much better this time - much less boomy and deeper rather than muddy. Obviously the vantages sounded better, but the difference was *much* smaller.
I'm now also factoring the room size which I'm putting these in, as well as the wife-acceptance-factor.

The room is 12' wide (the front wall behindt the TV), and 24' long. However, the seating position is not very far back - about 7' from the front wall.

My current 4' tall big-black-box infinity towers are somehwat overwhelming in this space, both sonically and visually. My wife is concerned that the Vantages will be visually too big, and I'm concerned the listening area is not big enough to do them justice.

The one nice thing, visally, is that they are 75% transparent. The Purity's are easier to swallow for my wife, but in my opinion are not all that much smaller, especially since the woofer box is actually bigger.

Alternatively, I've been looking at more standard small-box floorstanders, like the Monitor Audio RS8 or RS6, which both sound and look beautiful, and are much cheaper. They are about the best bang for the buck that i've found, but of course don't deliver the magical "unboxy" sound of ESL panels.

Thoughts?

Don't kid yourself, MLs take a ton of real estate. AND they're hard to set up. If you like to tinker, welcome to speaker Nerdvana! :ROFL:

The good thing about MLs is that they LOOK like art. I'm not aware of any speaker that look as cool as MLs. Maggies? Come on, they look like ceiling tiles. B&W 801s? Looks great if you think R2D2 should have been designed with a slide-rule! If your wife likes the look of the MLs, then you're more than halfway there. Frankly, my wife LOVES the look of the MLs. The extra real estate taken up is considered decorative as well. Awesome!

On another note, electrostats have a particular sound. You either love them or you don't. It would seem you do. Set up reasonably well (like mine), they're very impressive. Set up perfectly (not like mine), and they'll knock your socks off with their transparency and immediacy. MLs fart more "air" than most speaker can breathe. Whereas most speakers give you sound, MLs seem to float sound to you. I like that sound, hence I like MLs. Keep in mind setup will not take you days, it may take weeks. But also bear in mind that MLs are among the most frustrating if rewarding speakers to own.

Power. More power good, less power bad. Go swim 10 laps first thing in the morning. Feel like throwing up but don't have anything to throw up? So do your speakers. Go swim those 10 laps 2 hours after having a good breakfast and you're probably in much better shape. Same idea. More power in your amp means that as it works harder, it still has more power to give - it's not winded. Give your speakers low power, the strain will translate into muddy sound, particularly in your bass, since that requires the most power.

Best of luck! Try out some dynamic speakers. In the price range, you're looking at, check out the B&W 802 and 805s. Also audition some of the lower end Dynaudio. If you can find it, Sonus Faber are among my favorites.

Finally, when you buy, try to buy from one of the places you test-listened the speakers. Stores depend upon sales to keep their doors open. They hire knowledgeable (well, kinda. . .it's getting a lot more rare) people to set up equipment and give you advice. Their time and effort has to be worth something, right? Buying from them keeps them in biz. This keeps you able to go back to them for more test-listening! That's worth something, right?!

ronning said:

I'm now also factoring the room size which I'm putting these in

The room is 12' wide (the front wall behindt the TV), and 24' long. However, the seating position is not very far back - about 7' from the front wall.


Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Quite simply.........forget it ! at least IMO, why waste good money on speakers that for all intent and purpose will be used like headphones.

OK, not being a smart arse here but when you were auditioning in the stores were you listening say....only four feet away ?? and with the speakers in close proxiemty to the wall, with a TV in between ??

IMO, Logans need to be a MIN of two and preferably 4-6 ft from the wall behind them. They are not book shelf speakers ! Don't let anybody kid you that you can place them against the wall and have good sound, anybody that gives that advice has no clue what good sound is.

If your stuck with the measurements you provided and given the fact that you have a TV in between, buy yourself a nice pair of stand mounted bookshelf / monitors and sub and call it a day.

ronning said:

The room is 12' wide (the front wall behindt the TV), and 24' long. However, the seating position is not very far back - about 7' from the front wall.

Click to expand...

What is behind your seating position to have the 7' distance from the front wall? Near field can be done but as others pointed out may not bring out the best "for you" in your ML quest. We all wish we had great perfect rooms for our speakers.

While TV's in the middle of speakers is something we "try" to avoid, there are times the TV has to be there due to family and living requirements.

This hobby is all about give and take in terms of sound quality and living spaces. Hopefully you can talk the store into letting you listen at home, and if you do not like it, bring back from some other model's to try.

I agree with Dan (DTB300) on this. Although we all would like the perfect room, the reality is most of the time it is a compromise. A lot of people also use the same space as a den/family/multipurpose room. There will be compromises in this kind of an area. I would not rule out ML's for you room at all. I would attempt to get an in home demo and see what it sounds like to you. Also how does your wife like them which is also a major consideration. Then you can make an informed decision.

Personally I think the ML's will be fine in your room with little issues.

Jeff

Unfortunately, the space is as you guessed a shared family room / living room space. Long term, I plan to have a dedicated theather room that will have all the right space and treatements, but not until we move into a bigger house.

The other half of the room behind the couch is open space - but has a few other pieces of furniture including a small table for light dining. I would move the couch further back, but the entryway into and out of the room is exactly at the midpoint on the long wall on each side (see diagram).

I typed wrong - the 6' measurement is actually the distance from the listening position to the front of the tv bench, which sticks out about 2' from the front wall.

Obviously it's not ideal, but it's what I have to work with. So it may be better to wait 3-5 years until I have the ideal space to work with before investing in large ESLs.





Edit: the diagram is totally screwed up.

o = couch
E = TV bench
[] = current tower speakers

Although your space is not what one would call ideal, I still would try an in home demo. You always have the option of saying no. I still belive it can work but you are the final judge and only you will know.

Good Luck

Jeff

look at my system I have spires and a stage and am only 13' wide and have a 100" screen! you have the room tell your wife she can pic out the decorations and you can choose the speakers lol. the vantage are really not that big. regarless of what you think you heard their is a big difference between the speakers the one is not even in the ESL line it is a design series Martin Logan distinguishes the difference for a reason. I have found in this hobby you are better of bitting the bullet in the biggining a bit more than what makes you comfortable than wanting to upgrade later. just my 2 cents.
if its a matter of cost I can understand but if not do yourself a favor and get the better speakers.

the seating position being close is a good thing

I took my wife down to see/listen to all the speaker choices. I decided that I either want to go practical (small, inexpensive) and upgrade a few years down the road or go guns blazing all the way. The other speakers, including the Purity and Source, were still just comprimises, much more expensive than the MAs, and would need to eventually be replaced eventually anyway.

Anyway...

:ROFL:

Just for fun, I photoshopped the 2 potential speakers into the room, plus what's currently there (the black Infinity's). Please excuse the mess which along with the 2nd blue couch (which is usually not there) is leftover from our superbowl party on Sunday.

(that's my wife asleep on the couch as I look at speakers online... )

I'm standing in the middle of the room, which means the exact same space is also behind me. To my left is the front door, and to my right is the hallway. I'm standing about 12 feet away from the front wall.

Anyway, that's it for me. I'm biting the bullet and deciding today. Small, inexpensive, short-term, practical quality vs. big, expensive, amazing sound. Nothing imbetween!

Vantage. If not, in 3 days you'll be saying "I wonder if......."

Gordon

While I love my Vantages, given the room limitations, I think a high end bookshelf is the way to go. Thiel just released an amazing one. And Focal makes some stunning monitors as well. And that is just scrapping the surface.
Cheers,
ML

I really like what you did. a picture is worth a thousand words. one thing to keep in mind I think you could ditch your sub if you went with the vantage as they have a great powerful low end this would free up a little room.I also like your logic of waiting until you can get what you really want. just to throw another idea out their di you say you have heard the preface I heard them on a receiver at magnolia and they sounded great and sell for around $1500.00 this way later after you move and save or whatever you can get a pair of spires and not feel like you threw your money away on the first pair. this is how I approached the whole turntable thing I bought a reasonable one for now and later when I have more money and am sure I know what I want I will get crazy and perhaps get one like Twitch54 or some of the other black pizza fans on this site have.

Bookshelf may also be the right move for his setup but then he has to keep the sub

I think receivers have enough power depending on the receiver model

If you can't arc-weld with it, an amplifier is underpowered. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it...

However, in a more realistic world, I think "twich54" is right on track. The Onkyo receivers have very clean, quiet preamp stages, and I think that his suggestion of a used Rotel or Sunfire amplifier running from the pre-outs for your main 2 channels (to drive the Vantages) would be a VERY good solution.

--Richard

Decided!

I'm in the process of purchasing a pair of Vantages now.

Rather than buying something I'll be reselling in a few years, I decided to go all the way and slowly work into the right space / amplification / etc, all the while enjoying better sound.

Thanks to everyone for your help and support!

Now I just need to figure out what to get for surround sound speakers.

Right now I'm using the same Infinity Delta 60 towers in the back of the room as well. I am *definitely* getting something smaller and more elegant to replace them. Ideally it would be something like a miniature version of the Purities or Sources - does such a thing exist?

Alternatively I could get the Frescoes or vignettes, except that wall mounting is not ideal in my case (plaster walls).

Ideally I could find something like the speakers I had been considering - the Monitor Audio RS6's. Small, trim, floor standing, beautiful, good sounding, and reasonably priced. But I doubt they would sonically match the MLs.

you can set the fresco's horizontally on a shelf! good choice on the vantage you will love them and welcome to the ESL club

If you can work it into the budget, think about a set of four GIK 242 panels for your walls. in that tight space it will really make those speakers sound a lot better....

Put one right behind the panel and one on the left and right side about 2 or 3 feet in front of each speaker.

Congrats!

Also, one of the guys here (sorry I can't remember who..) gave me the tip of subwoofer behind the couch. Seeing you have such a long deep room, give it a try, it might give you the magic bass integration you are looking for.

I may actually do something like this. Coincidentally, my wife has some cloth/woven art that we haven't found a place to hang up yet.. looks like I found a good place for them. I believe i can conceal foam absorption panels behind them (since the cloth is mostly acoustically transparent like speaker grills). Worth a shot!

tonepub said:

If you can work it into the budget, think about a set of four GIK 242 panels for your walls. in that tight space it will really make those speakers sound a lot better....

Put one right behind the panel and one on the left and right side about 2 or 3 feet in front of each speaker.

Congrats!

Also, one of the guys here (sorry I can't remember who..) gave me the tip of subwoofer behind the couch. Seeing you have such a long deep room, give it a try, it might give you the magic bass integration you are looking for.

Click to expand...

the gik would work good for that I think