ML Descent sub vs JL 113 Fathom

You guys will be the first to know!

DrJRapp said:

I'm really interested in how the CLXs merge with subs that don't have Xovers that are specifically tailored for them like the Descent does. It could be a challenging matchup.

Click to expand...

I have the CLX set up with 2 JL Gotham and the initial setup was fairly easy in terms of blending the subs with the CLX. I tried a few other crossover points but they seemed to fall into place at 80hz. The JL subs play higher bass frequencies as well or better than any other sub on the market and IMO in most cases better than most "full range" speakers.

houstonshark said:

I have the CLX set up with 2 JL Gotham and the initial setup was fairly easy in terms of blending the subs with the CLX. I tried a few other crossover points but they seemed to fall into place at 80hz. The JL subs play higher bass frequencies as well or better than any other sub on the market and IMO in most cases better than most "full range" speakers.

Click to expand...

I'd like to try your set up with an active crossover before the speakers to completely separate what signal is being sent where. I think that would be the ultimate setup for the CLX's. :rocker:

taylode said:

I'd like to try your set up with an active crossover before the speakers to completely separate what signal is being sent where. I think that would be the ultimate setup for the CLX's. :rocker:

Click to expand...

You mean by removing the crossover in the CLX, replacing it with an active crossover inline and bi-amping it? I would think the integration of the 2 ESL panels would be very difficult. I can't imagine you could get that much more out of them but I may be wrong.

ultimately I am sure I will have 2 F113's in my theater room... I just put my used Velodyne F1800 up for sale to make room for a second one!
This damn hobby is worse than an addiction! Help!!!!!!

houstonshark said:

You mean by removing the crossover in the CLX, replacing it with an active crossover inline and bi-amping it? I would think the integration of the 2 ESL panels would be very difficult. I can't imagine you could get that much more out of them but I may be wrong.

Click to expand...

No, leave the crossover intact, but don't send anything to the CLX below say 80hz, 100hz, or whatever the magic number turned out to be. Send all the really low stuff to the sub only.

taylode said:

No, leave the crossover intact, but don't send anything to the CLX below say 80hz, 100hz, or whatever the magic number turned out to be. Send all the really low stuff to the sub only.

Click to expand...

uh, isn't that what your preamp should already be doing? Or do you mean using an active crossover to eliminate the slope of the cutoff frequency?

That's never been my experience for great sound. I've always had the best luck running a system full range and just using the sub for extreme low frequency reinforcement.

But, there's always more than one way to skin the cat.

tonepub said:

That's never been my experience for great sound. I've always had the best luck running a system full range and just using the sub for extreme low frequency reinforcement.

But, there's always more than one way to skin the cat.

Click to expand...

I guess that's why there are no absolute rules for the setup of AV gear.

It's been my experience in the past with ML and REL subs that the lower you can get away with crossing them over the better. Those subs do not handle high bass frequencies (40-80hz) near as well as JL does.

IMO if you take a speaker like the CLX which plays down to 56hz, that doesn't necessarily mean it plays to 56hz well. The easiest way to start out setting the system up if you are using a F113 or Gotham I have found is to set the speakers up as small (or cross them over at 80hz) and let the JL take over from 80hz and down. This is also JL's recommendation (it was tough for me at first!). Keep in mind that JL recommends using the crossover in the preamp to do this as opposed to the built in crossover in the sub. From there you can tweak the crossover setting to get them to blend seamlessly.

You have to understand a little about the driver construction and the fact that the Fathom and Gotham drivers are based off of the W7 car driver (and yes I said based off of because they are different according to JL especially the 13 which has a much larger and more powerful motor structure). If anyone is familiar with car audio you typically have to cross your subwoofer over at 80hz and sometimes higher because most component speakers cannot play below 80hz in a free air (door) environment. JL makes some of the very few drivers IMO that can play high without sounding muddy. FYI I used to compete in SQ on a national level back in the day with my car.

Don't shoot me but this is my experience and my company's way of doing things when setting up ANY speaker with a JL sub. Granted, there are some speakers out there that can play down to 35hz effectively but that doesn't mean it can do it better than the JL.

And that's why we always try it a few different ways!

I'm sure we'll figure out the best mix for the setup....

houstonshark said:

uh, isn't that what your preamp should already be doing? Or do you mean using an active crossover to eliminate the slope of the cutoff frequency?

Click to expand...

Would you be discussing an HT type pre? If not, could you point me to a 2 channel pre with that type of bass management? I'd be interested in reading about it.

Gordon

Gordon said:

Would you be discussing an HT type pre? If not, could you point me to a 2 channel pre with that type of bass management? I'd be interested in reading about it.

Gordon

Click to expand...

I was actually referring to a 'HT Type' preamp as I didn't just assume that Dennis had a 2 channel system. More specifically, the preamp I am using for this CLX system is the Mark Levinson No502 Media Console.
I guess as a retailer AND an enthusiest I have a slight bias towards HT products realizing that an overwhelming majority of these products (ML and JL Audio) are used in a HT setup and not as a dedicated 2ch system.

As far as a 2ch pre with bass management I believe the Parasound Halo P7 off the top of my head has it on analog inputs.

tonepub said:

That's never been my experience for great sound. I've always had the best luck running a system full range and just using the sub for extreme low frequency reinforcement.

But, there's always more than one way to skin the cat.

Click to expand...

My interest is based upon an individuals experience setting up his SF Memento's & JL subs using an active Bryston crossover. He has his crossover set so that below a certain hz nothing is sent to the memento's. He claims it made a huge difference especially when he put his MC275 back into the mix. That sounds reasonable to me and may be worth experimenting with since the crossover aren't that expensive. However, it will be a while for me since I have neither the JL subs or the CLX's.

I noticed on the JL Audio website that they don't recommend positioning the sub in the center between the speakers. I read the review by audio revolution under reviews on the JL Audio site that said they found the 113 worked best centered between the speakers.

Have any of you placed your JL subs in the center between your main speakers. This is exactly where I found my depth worked best.Look's like I will be in the position to aquire a Fathom 113 in about a month, can't wait for that.

houstonshark said:

I'm sure that I'm opening myself up for a lot of criticism and there will be some very opinionated views but I prefer the JL all things being equal. The F113 has more output, is more musical and has a smaller foodprint compared to the Descent. That being said I am a ML dealer and a Charter JL Audio dealer. The majority of the subs we sell are JL. The. We F110 is a great sub as well and will likely replace our Depth sales (even though I personally own a Depth that will go along with my newly ordered Spire).
If cost is no object the Gotham is a world class sub of which we have sold several (the last 4 being sold in pairs).
Considering the retail of the Descent being $3k and the F113 being $3800 the Descent just might be a better value. I also think it may have to do with the type of main speaker you own and where you prefer to cross them over at. As a rule we typically cross the mains over at 80hz when using a JL sub as JL recommends. There are just not a whole lot of speakers out there that can play 80hz and down as well as the JL.
With ML subs however I take a different approach and tend to spend more time trying to tune the system and cross the sub over at as low a frequency as possible.

Click to expand...

I have a descent i in a 7.1 system with Vantage and Cinema i up front.

I use a Onkyo 885P pre/pro. Any suggestions other than using or not audyssey for integration into the 7.1? When I run pure (stereo only) what are the best settings for the Vantage+Descent i -35 hz cross over?


Thanks!

joel

Gordon said:

Would you be discussing an HT type pre? If not, could you point me to a 2 channel pre with that type of bass management? I'd be interested in reading about it.

Gordon

Click to expand...

This one should work fine:
http://www.lyngdorf.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=43

You can decide what type of crossover you want and also the order.
And then you can use the RoomPerfect system for the final tuning.
I have one for my Puritys and even if it is a somewhat more modest system then a pair of CLX's and a pair of subs I really like it.

MOON said:

I noticed on the JL Audio website that they don't recommend positioning the sub in the center between the speakers. I read the review by audio revolution under reviews on the JL Audio site that said they found the 113 worked best centered between the speakers.

Have any of you placed your JL subs in the center between your main speakers. This is exactly where I found my depth worked best.Look's like I will be in the position to aquire a Fathom 113 in about a month, can't wait for that.

Click to expand...

That's more of an aesthetic value over an actual sonic value IMHO. Subs usually work best when placed in or near the corners. It doesn't have to be against the wall but near for better reinforcment. The JL has adjustments so experimment away until you find the sweet spot. I spoke with Jerry D over at audio revolution before I even purchased my subs and I don't remember him saying that he placed his Fathom in the middle of the room. He was selling his Watt Puppy's at the same time he had the Fathom in for review. He was one of the first to review it. But that was a long time ago now.

Optimal placement is different for every room. Placing near corners really can excite alot of room modes and cause poor sounding bass, but then some rooms benefit from it. Some sound great in the center, some do not. It is a trial and error thing but can be made much easier with room acoustic software to really show you what is going on.

Carl Kennedy of JL Audio gave me tis website to look at that answers many questions regarding placement , etc of JL Audio subs. You can find it at www.theprofessionalanswer.com

Interesting site and stuff to read.

No absolutes in this hobby IMO as all rooms are different and most of all, our personal preferences as to what sounds best is different.

I agree you could start in a corner but then if one can accomodate different placements try as many as you can and find what you like best. Or what measures the best.