absorption behind "Theater" center?? Help!!!

gordonmenninger · Dec 16, 2008

I am a newbie here but have been reading the forums here for a while before I started to get into the amazing ML speakers...

I have a theater room that is pretty large and open on the rear side of the room. acoustics in there are not the easiest... My "Theater" center speaker has always been a bit hard to listen to and I just put some pillows covered with a black sweatshirt (!) behind the center which really made the sound out of that speaker easier to understand due to less reverb / echo / etc... My wife will soon see the ugly contraption I just threw together so I need to put something permanent there that looks good and works good... I have attached a picture of the center and also a view looking from the screen to the rear of the room (you can see the rear speakers). Anyone suggest any kind of wall treatments by the rear speakers? Ugly tube traps are out of the question due to the waf... what do you guys recommend??
thanks

gordon:music:

Rich · Dec 17, 2008

Personally, I use a HF Mini Trap from Ethan at Real Traps, mounted horizontally under my screen and it works great. You can get them in black. But I cannot tell if you have enough clearance from your screen to the floor to fit one in from the picture you posted. They are two foot wide by four foot long.

gordonmenninger · Dec 17, 2008

Thanks Rich, I think I only have about 16-18" of clearance to work with...

Rich · Dec 17, 2008

In that case, you could either call Ethan and see if you can get a thinner, custom size panel. Or you could use the standard panel, but lay it on the floor and lean it back against the wall. That lean could save you a few inches ( I don't know if it would save you six to eight inches, though). If Ethan can't do a skinnier panel, then maybe someone else would. Perhaps GIK or someone else. A final option is to DIY. Plenty of info on the net for those who want to DIY their own acoustic panels.

Kruppy · Dec 17, 2008

Rich said:
Perhaps GIK or someone else.

If you do not go DIY, I know GIK will make custom sized panels. I asked Glenn at GIK this same question about 9 months ago.

gordonmenninger · Dec 17, 2008

Kruppy said:
If you do not go DIY, I know GIK will make custom sized panels. I asked Glenn at GIK this same question about 9 months ago.

thanks for all the info guys! I could try to build a frame out of wood and fill with fiberglass and cover with black fabric for that area, correct?

anyone have any suggestions if this will work to do what I am trying to do?

What about panels behind the SL3's? I watch mostly movies and concerts and really like to crank up the system... It can get a little shrill at times when it's cranked up... I just do not want the ML's to end up sounding dead and lifeless if I put panels behind them...

I ordered the Behringer DEQ2496 for the mains and once I hook it up on friday and play with it, maybe the sound will improve a bit...

Rich · Dec 17, 2008

Only you will know for sure whether they will sound clearer and more revealing, or dead and lifeless once you try some and see. I, and several others on the forum, swear by them. Removing the rear wave reflection reduces the decibel level, so you can turn up the volume more without it sounding so loud and shrill.

And it removes a wave of sound that interferes with your brain's interpretation of the front wave. This makes the sound you get so much clearer and more distinct. You hear more details. I promise you, there is nothing dead or lifeless about my system. I actually have to snicker when people say that. Why on earth would removing the interference of the rear wave of a quality dipole speaker suddenly make the sound from the front wave "dead and lifeless?"

The kicker is that you have to try it for yourself, and give it a chance. Don't just put some panels behind your speakers and say: "Oh, it sounds dead. I don't like it." And then remove them. I think a lot of people just respond immediately to the change in sound, which is substantial, and don't give the panels a chance. You have to accustom yourself to the change before you can adequately evaluate whether the sound is truly better or worse from your personal perspective.

Leave the panels back there for a week or two and listen to lots of music and movies. Get used to the sound. Turn up the volume. Then remove them and listen for the difference. I think most people that do this will be converts. Some just like the added "ambiance" (whatever that means) of the rear wave interference, though. So it really does come down to personal preference. But especially if you are watching a lot of movies, where you want to hear every detail, then you really, really need some absorption behind the three front speakers.

Kruppy · Dec 17, 2008

gordonmenninger said:
thanks for all the info guys! I could try to build a frame out of wood and fill with fiberglass and cover with black fabric for that area, correct?

anyone have any suggestions if this will work to do what I am trying to do?

What about panels behind the SL3's? I watch mostly movies and concerts and really like to crank up the system... It can get a little shrill at times when it's cranked up... I just do not want the ML's to end up sounding dead and lifeless if I put panels behind them...

I ordered the Behringer DEQ2496 for the mains and once I hook it up on friday and play with it, maybe the sound will improve a bit...

Search through this portion of the forum, there are quite a few threads on home made panels.

I am currently playing around with absorption behind and around my Ascents as I also have the upper frequency issues at louder listening levels. I have found that absorption at first seemed to rob the music of ambience and spacial qualities, however, once I listened more and got used to it I realized that finer details were clearer and less muddied up. The soundstage became clearer and snapped into place.

Here's a quote from a conversation I had with a fellow member that pretty much sums it up perfectly:

"Initial absorption seems wrong to most as they are used to the brightness. But once you are used to the sound then an untreated room sounds terrible with all the room interaction."

gordonmenninger · Dec 17, 2008

Thanks for the great insight info guys! I think I will try to some foam panels behind the left and right speakers and also behind the center speaker. what thickness do you guys think i need to be looking at?

if I go the DIY route, should I be looking at foam or fiberglass???

thanks

gordon

Rich said:
Only you will know for sure whether they will sound clearer and more revealing, or dead and lifeless once you try some and see. I, and several others on the forum, swear by them. Removing the rear wave reflection reduces the decibel level, so you can turn up the volume more without it sounding so loud and shrill.

And it removes a wave of sound that interferes with your brain's interpretation of the front wave. This makes the sound you get so much clearer and more distinct. You hear more details. I promise you, there is nothing dead or lifeless about my system. I actually have to snicker when people say that. Why on earth would removing the interference of the rear wave of a quality dipole speaker suddenly make the sound from the front wave "dead and lifeless?"

The kicker is that you have to try it for yourself, and give it a chance. Don't just put some panels behind your speakers and say: "Oh, it sounds dead. I don't like it." And then remove them. I think a lot of people just respond immediately to the change in sound, which is substantial, and don't give the panels a chance. You have to accustom yourself to the change before you can adequately evaluate whether the sound is truly better or worse from your personal perspective.

Leave the panels back there for a week or two and listen to lots of music and movies. Get used to the sound. Turn up the volume. Then remove them and listen for the difference. I think most people that do this will be converts. Some just like the added "ambiance" (whatever that means) of the rear wave interference, though. So it really does come down to personal preference. But especially if you are watching a lot of movies, where you want to hear every detail, then you really, really need some absorption behind the three front speakers.

Kruppy · Dec 17, 2008

gordonmenninger said:
Thanks for the great insight info guys! I think I will try to some foam panels behind the left and right speakers and also behind the center speaker. what thickness do you guys think i need to be looking at?

if I go the DIY route, should I be looking at foam or fiberglass???

thanks

gordon

A lot of good information here: http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6758

DTB300 · Dec 17, 2008

gordonmenninger said:
if I go the DIY route, should I be looking at foam or fiberglass???

It is always suggested to use either Rigid Fiberglass or Acoustical Cotton - 2" for HF, 4-6" for bass trapping. DIY would be a great solution for that area as you can make the panel to the exact size you need. But like other here said Real Traps, GIK, etc. can also provide custom sizes for you.

Lots of threads here on in case you did not see it:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=73

gordonmenninger · Dec 18, 2008

well, thanks again to all those here who helped me with my little problem. I decided to go the DIY route because I am an impatient person. I will start a completely new thread on here with pictures etc. in case anyone else is interested. In a nutshell I went to Lowes, bought a box of Armstrong acoustical Ceiling tiles, took the white plastic textured film off to expose the fiberglass on both sides and sandwiched 3 together and wrapped them in black speker cloth. They system sounds absolutely AMAZING! Actually improved imaging, detail, everything. Even in 2 channel, it sounds like there is a huge wall of speakers in front of me. THis was a great improvement that was cheap! Here are some pics and look for the other more detailed thread!
gordon:rocker:

akm3 · Dec 18, 2008

I don't have a suggestion, but your house/decor/aesthetics are beautiful.

gordonmenninger · Dec 18, 2008

akm3 said:
I don't have a suggestion, but your house/decor/aesthetics are beautiful.

thank you for the nice compliment! My wife takes designing our interior spaces very seriously and will be happy to hear that! It is always a tradeoff when you have a spouse involved, but she has pretty much stayed out of it in this part of the house luckily! Now if I were to put 8 big Tube traps in there, that would be a big "are you out of your freaking mind" problem!

Rich · Dec 18, 2008

I just love a happy ending! Or should I say, a new beginning. Glad it worked out for you.

Kruppy · Dec 18, 2008

Insert Apu voice (you know....Apu....from the Simpson's)....

Another happy customer. Thank you very much, come again.

JonFo · Dec 20, 2008

gordonmenninger said:
thank you for the nice compliment! My wife takes designing our interior spaces very seriously and will be happy to hear that! It is always a tradeoff when you have a spouse involved, but she has pretty much stayed out of it in this part of the house luckily! Now if I were to put 8 big Tube traps in there, that would be a big "are you out of your freaking mind" problem!

Gordon, nice work on the low cost treatments.

As for the spouse, do what I do, and get her involved in the design and solution of the problem. :devil:

Matter of fact, she and I are working on assembling one more set of DIY treatments that have artistic touches courtesy of her. and she's even doing much of the work

So ask your wife what kind of design for a bass trap would suit the decor.

There are things like the GIK column-trap that SleepySurf has or any number of other ways to disguise a bass trap as something else or as a design element in the decor in general.

gordonmenninger · Dec 24, 2008

JonFo said:
Gordon, nice work on the low cost treatments.

As for the spouse, do what I do, and get her involved in the design and solution of the problem. :devil:

Matter of fact, she and I are working on assembling one more set of DIY treatments that have artistic touches courtesy of her. and she's even doing much of the work

So ask your wife what kind of design for a bass trap would suit the decor.

There are things like the GIK column-trap that SleepySurf has or any number of other ways to disguise a bass trap as something else or as a design element in the decor in general.

Jon, good pointers on getting the wife involved... I will definintely have to do that even though I told her I was done tweaking for now! (yeah right!)

itzpms · Feb 5, 2009

me too

akm3 said:
I don't have a suggestion, but your house/decor/aesthetics are beautiful.

i know. your room is b e a u tiful !!

gordonmenninger · Feb 20, 2009

thanks for the nice compliment! It is not easy trying to make a room sound good for HT and Music, be appropriate for HD video, and also look somewhat like the rest of the house! Especially when it is open like my room is... In a totally dedicated theater with just square walls and a door, i would have gone crazier with the acoustical treatments, black ceiling and darker walls, bass traps on all 4 corners, etc but you just have to work with what you got!

absorption behind "Theater" center?? Help!!!

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