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rkc

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Hi all, I have done a lot of reading on tube amps and have decided that now is the time to test drive one. One of the best descriptions of tube amps I have seen is that they tend to have soul, and another description could be boogey factor. I am currently using an Audio Research 100.2 SS amp driving SL3s. While this amp is very nice and clean, it just doesn't get me emotionally involved or have "soul" or possess the "boogey factor". My preamp is an Audio Research LS15 and cd player is a Rega Planet.

Some of the amps I am considering are the ARC VT130, ARC VS55, BAT VK60 and the Cary AES Sixpacs. I would be open to changing preamps as well in order to get better synergy. My musical preferences are classic rock, newer rock, jazz and some blues. My living room is approximately 22' x 18' with a cathedral ceiling. My budget would be around $1800.

I know that Spike has experience with the Sixpacs and he seems to really love them with Requests.

Looking for some foot tapping in the house!:rocker:

Rich
 
Try some Conrad Johnson amps. I find they fit very well with MLs. I love the CJ sound, good "soul". There is a set of Conrad Johnson Premier 12 mono blocks on ebay now for 1,300.00. At 140 Watts each I think will be a good fit with your speakers. The only thing is the bidding ends in 45 mins.
 
From looking at the two posts above, I can't help but wonder if anyone has combined ARC and CJ.
 
I've had good luck combining ARC and CJ over the years. I've always found older CJ a bit warmer and ARC a bit more neutral, but no problems at all. It just depends on the final sound you are going for.

The Cary's are probably the most romantic of what you are looking for.

You might even consider a more "Tubey" sounding preamp...

See if someone will lend you an older CJ preamp or even something like the Manley Shrimp. That's got a very warm and romantic sound. They are only about 1700 new. That might give you the warmth you want...

What tubes are in your ARC?

If you are running stock 6922's, those are pretty sterile sounding. You might even try a set of NOS/vintage 7308's. I had excellent luck with those in my LS2, warming it up quite a bit.

Last but not least, your CD player is pretty dry too. The Rega players aren't terribly romantic sounding, so if you just listen to CD, consider the Prima Luna Prologue 8 CD player; it's very warm and romantic. That might be the only change you need...
 
tonepub said:
What tubes are in your ARC?

If you are running stock 6922's, those are pretty sterile sounding. You might even try a set of NOS/vintage 7308's. I had excellent luck with those in my LS2, warming it up quite a bit.

Last but not least, your CD player is pretty dry too. The Rega players aren't terribly romantic sounding, so if you just listen to CD, consider the Prima Luna Prologue 8 CD player; it's very warm and romantic. That might be the only change you need...
Click to expand...
I agree with the NOS 7308s; I have Gold Aeros that sound great in my ARC SP9.

I agree too with the PrimaLuna; I picked it up a couple of weeks ago. If you buy it, do get the upgrade board - only $150.
 
tonepub said:
I've always found older CJ a bit warmer and ARC a bit more neutral

The Cary's are probably the most romantic of what you are looking for.

consider the Prima Luna Prologue 8 CD player; it's very warm and romantic. That might be the only change you need...
Click to expand...

I agree, had the CJ PV-11 back in the day, noticeably 'warmer' than my ARC SP-9 mkII that followed it.

With respect to Cary and CDP, the 303/300 has proven itself to me for the past couple of years.
 
tonepub said:
I've had good luck combining ARC and CJ over the years. I've always found older CJ a bit warmer and ARC a bit more neutral, but no problems at all. It just depends on the final sound you are going for.

The Cary's are probably the most romantic of what you are looking for.

You might even consider a more "Tubey" sounding preamp...

See if someone will lend you an older CJ preamp or even something like the Manley Shrimp. That's got a very warm and romantic sound. They are only about 1700 new. That might give you the warmth you want...

What tubes are in your ARC?

If you are running stock 6922's, those are pretty sterile sounding. You might even try a set of NOS/vintage 7308's. I had excellent luck with those in my LS2, warming it up quite a bit.

Last but not least, your CD player is pretty dry too. The Rega players aren't terribly romantic sounding, so if you just listen to CD, consider the Prima Luna Prologue 8 CD player; it's very warm and romantic. That might be the only change you need...
Click to expand...

I've always been curious about combining arc and cj. If I did try this out, I wonder if changing the amp to cj or the preamp to cj would get better results.

Several years ago, I tried out a cj mf-200 solid state amp and thought it was the most musical amp I've ever heard, until I put some AC/DC on and the amp made it sound pretty. AC/DC isn't supposed to sound rosy. On most other styles of music, it was amazing. Maybe the mf-2500a would be better for AC/DC, I dunno.

I retubed the LS15 with stock EH 6922's about a year ago. I agree with your comment on the Planet cd player. Would the Apollo be a similar sound to the Prologue 8? Apollos are really coming down in used prices. In other words, I'm a bit limited on what I can spend for a cd player.
 
All the Rega CD players have a fairly neutral sound, tonally.
The ProLogue 8 is very warm (without the upgrade board, that makes it sound a bit more modern, if you will)

The best comparison I can offer on the PL8 is that it reminds me of the sound of a Grado cartridge, a bit warm, romantic and forgiving.

If the ProLogue Monos are something that works with your system, they are fun amps because of their autobias feature. You can plug a number of different tubes in and get a different sound without having to rebias tubes.

The stock KT-88 offers a more neutral, extended sound, NOS 6550s a little more mellow (but pricey). You can even go with 6L6GT's and get a very vintage sound, or use EL34's and get some really magic midrange at the expense of a little power.

There are a ton of variations on the theme...
 
You rang?

rkc said:
I know that Spike has experience with the Sixpacs and he seems to really love them with Requests.
Click to expand...
Sorry for jumping on this thread a bit late. I just got back from a business trip and just now noticed I was mentioned in this thread so I felt compelled to put in my opinions.

I started out a huge fan of ARC having owned ARC equipments (LS linestage and VT series amplifiers), but over time, I came to the realization that something was lacking in the ARC sound. Plenty of foot-tapping but "soul" was lacking. Perhaps it has to do with the circuitry involving overall feedback of the amplifiers. You would not have noticed it unless you've been smitten by listening to another amplifier with zero feedback. That said, I know that the VS series is a vast improvement from the VT series in that ARC is tracing its way back to the more romantic sourd of the original ARC. From the system synergy perspective, it makes sense to go with the ARC VS55 to complete the ARC system. I'd go with the VS55 on the panels, keep the 100.2 on the bass, driven with some fresh NOS tubes in the LS15. The LS15 is a good unit and I think you can benefit from tube rolling with some NOS tubes.

Several years ago, I tried out a cj mf-200 solid state amp and thought it was the most musical amp I've ever heard, until I put some AC/DC on and the amp made it sound pretty. AC/DC isn't supposed to sound rosy. On most other styles of music, it was amazing.
Click to expand...
From this description and the amps listed, I doubt if the CJ (tubes) or even the SixPacs will work since they will result in "rosy" sound. The BAT vk60 fits the bill here, but it's NOT romantic as CJ or Cary. I'd describe the BAT to be very transparent (but still musical) whereas the ARC to be "high-resolution".

Another amp coming to mind which may fit the bill for being flexible is the Cary V12R. The reason for mentioning this amp is its flexibility to switch between ultralinear and triode mode. Ultralinear for foot-tapping, AC/DC type rock and triode for more romantic musical rendition.

In short, going outside of these above mentioned amplifiers, I'd say to look for an amp with zero feedback design, and the ability to switch between ultralinear/triode mode. It takes a bit of looking but these amps do exist.

Good luck
Spike
 
Spike said:
Another amp coming to mind which may fit the bill for being flexible is the Cary V12R.
Click to expand...
To die for as I understand it, if you can find one go for it.

My opinion is you should go to your local high-end store and see what used tube equipment they are selling. Then borrow it (credit card hold) and test it at home. You might not even end up with a popular brand, just something you like.
 
I too have favored the tube amplifiers for as long as I can remember. Had several and listened on my own system to many others. I favor a tube amp with a solid state regulated power supply with considerable capacitance to produce the best possible DC power to the power bus. The tubes when driven hard tend to produce even order harmonics more pallatable to the ear. Doesn't take much in terms of transient to challenge an amplifier on an instantaneous basis. So an amp should be able to produce a considerable amount of power to the speakers assuming the speakers are reasonably effecient.

It's not hard to see which tube amplifiers are revered over the years for the above stated qualities. I finally settled on a pair of EAR 509 MKII's. Also considered several of the legacy Audio Research amplifiers. The harder to find amplifiers are often that way because the owners would sooner die than give them up!

What others have said above is true. Make sure you listen on your own system and take some time; perhaps over the weekend, and with a lot of different material.
 
Thank you Spike

Spike said:
Sorry for jumping on this thread a bit late. I just got back from a business trip and just now noticed I was mentioned in this thread so I felt compelled to put in my opinions.

I started out a huge fan of ARC having owned ARC equipments (LS linestage and VT series amplifiers), but over time, I came to the realization that something was lacking in the ARC sound. Plenty of foot-tapping but "soul" was lacking. Perhaps it has to do with the circuitry involving overall feedback of the amplifiers. You would not have noticed it unless you've been smitten by listening to another amplifier with zero feedback. That said, I know that the VS series is a vast improvement from the VT series in that ARC is tracing its way back to the more romantic sourd of the original ARC. From the system synergy perspective, it makes sense to go with the ARC VS55 to complete the ARC system. I'd go with the VS55 on the panels, keep the 100.2 on the bass, driven with some fresh NOS tubes in the LS15. The LS15 is a good unit and I think you can benefit from tube rolling with some NOS tubes.


From this description and the amps listed, I doubt if the CJ (tubes) or even the SixPacs will work since they will result in "rosy" sound. The BAT vk60 fits the bill here, but it's NOT romantic as CJ or Cary. I'd describe the BAT to be very transparent (but still musical) whereas the ARC to be "high-resolution".

Another amp coming to mind which may fit the bill for being flexible is the Cary V12R. The reason for mentioning this amp is its flexibility to switch between ultralinear and triode mode. Ultralinear for foot-tapping, AC/DC type rock and triode for more romantic musical rendition.

In short, going outside of these above mentioned amplifiers, I'd say to look for an amp with zero feedback design, and the ability to switch between ultralinear/triode mode. It takes a bit of looking but these amps do exist.

Good luck
Spike
Click to expand...

I really appreciate you sharing your experience with these various amplifiers. It has really helped steer me closer to the "yellow brick road". I like the idea of using the vs55 on the panels and the 100.2 for the woofers, however, I have to sell the 100.2 to get the vs55. I would like to buy an older Parasound or something for the woofers eventually but (here is another but), I use one of the two pre-outs of the LS15 to run a subwoofer.

Having said that, since I need to run the vs55 full range, would this amp power the SL3's to decent levels, say 90-100 db's on occasion? I don't listen at these levels very much any more but every now and then when the wife and kids are shopping, I like to open up the thottle a little. The vs110 would give me a few more db's and probably would be the logical choice for full range. Unfortunately I have to keep within a budget for the time being so that probably eliminates it even though I listed that amp. Perhaps in a couple of years, the vs110's will be more within reach.

I'll keep an eye out for the ultralinear and triode combo type amps as well. If you have any suggestions other than the V12R (pricey), that would be wonderful.

Thanks again,

Rich
 
I doubt if the ARC VS55 will be able to deliver the goods driving the SL3. That's a pretty tall order for the vs55. Sure, the ARC tubes will have soul, but the bass will be too loose in order to be considered "boogey factor". That was the main reason for suggesting the tubes on the panels and solid-state on the bass. Now, if you want to look for a musical amp driving the SL3 full-range, I'd seriously consider:
  1. Pass Labs X150
  2. BAT vk200
  3. Classe' DR9
In that order. The Classe' is somewhat a cult piece and many have considered it one of Classe' classic product of all times. You should look at some of the class A, no feedback solid-state design first, and then upgrade to tubes on the panels at a later stage if that is still warranted. Who knows, ARC LS15 with new tubes combined the Pass X150 may just be the ticket to deliver soul AND boogey factor at the price point you're looking at.

Good luck
Spike
 
You might want to consider the Aleph monoblocks. Single ended class A solid state. Wonderful sound, no tubes......
 
The Aleph was typically an extremely well reviewed 30 Watt design, though they did do a 60 Watt version by the looks of the website. I'd go for the 60 Watt version as an absolute minimum if you like it loud. But I'd be amazed if that was enough - try before you buy! Though I know the 30 Watt version was noted to perform "beyond it's power rating".

As hinted before, 50 Watts of tube power isn't going to hack it. I know this because I heard the SL3 with my 50 Watt ultra-linear push-pull Bill Beard. Flabby, uncontrolled bass for sure. The Aerius was fine with that amp, however, if a little stressed at very high levels.

The SL3 was and is quite difficult to control. It needs power.:devil:
 
Last edited:
Thanks again, EVERYONE!

Spike said:
I doubt if the ARC VS55 will be able to deliver the goods driving the SL3. That's a pretty tall order for the vs55. Sure, the ARC tubes will have soul, but the bass will be too loose in order to be considered "boogey factor". That was the main reason for suggesting the tubes on the panels and solid-state on the bass. Now, if you want to look for a musical amp driving the SL3 full-range, I'd seriously consider:
  1. Pass Labs X150
  2. BAT vk200
  3. Classe' DR9
In that order. The Classe' is somewhat a cult piece and many have considered it one of Classe' classic product of all times. You should look at some of the class A, no feedback solid-state design first, and then upgrade to tubes on the panels at a later stage if that is still warranted. Who knows, ARC LS15 with new tubes combined the Pass X150 may just be the ticket to deliver soul AND boogey factor at the price point you're looking at.

Good luck
Spike
Click to expand...

I am sure the vs55 is a fine amp but I knew 50 watts/ch would be a tall order running SL3's full range. I am glad you guys stopped me before I took the plunge.

I have never considered or heard Pass amps but I have read they are fine amps indeed. After doing some research on the X150, guys seem to really like it and they tend to have good synergy with Logans. TomDac seems to enjoy his Pass amp.

I did come within a hair of choosing a VK-200 when I bought my 100.2, I just considered the synergy factor with my LS-15 in choosing the 100.2 over the VK-200. Perhaps Bat would sound just fine combined with the LS-15.

Only time I heard a Classe amp was about a year ago. It was driving Magnapan 1.6s. It sounded very nice and warm.

Another amp I heard several years ago that was awesome with SL3's was a McCormack dna-2. Those are hard to find however.

I did have a Sunfire at one time, a Cinema Grand Signature that I passively biamped with. I could drive the hell out of my speakers with 800 watts per channel but again, no "boogie factor". The Sunfire Signature 600 paired with the Vacuum Tube Control Center always made me wonder how that would sound. Saw some pictures of Prodigy's paired with this combo at one time.

I will give all these amps serious consideration, thanks a bunch!

Rich
 
rkc,

I'm just north of Cincy and might be willing to let you demo my CJ PV-12A preamp in your system. I use it along with a Rotel RB-1090 to drive my Ascents and/or 3.6 maggies.
 
Thanks Al

Big Al said:
rkc,

I'm just north of Cincy and might be willing to let you demo my CJ PV-12A preamp in your system. I use it along with a Rotel RB-1090 to drive my Ascents and/or 3.6 maggies.
Click to expand...

I had a PV-10BL about 2 years ago paired up with a Sunfire amp. I have read that the 10BL has the same basic circuit as the 12, of course minus the phono stage. The synergy was not good at all with Sunfire. That's when I sold the 10 and bought the LS-15. It's a never ending merry go-round.

I love the sound of CJ power amps, at least the MF200. If those amps would play rock with some authority, they would be perfect. Tell me what is!

Thanks for the offer on the demo.

Go Reds!!

Rich
 
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