Introduction Of New ML Models Too Quick ??

It seems to me since Gayle Sanders sold ML that the new model changes have come out at a fast rate compared to before.Don't get me wrong here , I am all for advancement and love ML speakers.

It seems the summit wasn't out too long before it was discontinued and prices fell fast on remaining models. That's great if you are in the market , but not for the early adopters of the summit model.Just one look at what Musical Fidelity did for themselves cahanging models at a very high rate - no more Noth American disributor. I am not sure if that is still the case.

Do you think the new models should be phased in over a longer time frame? I think that would insure that models would hold a higher resale value on the used market. It seems to me anyway , that ML's resale value falls off substancially in the used market compared to years before.Interested in your opinions.

Cheers

Yep, "Fool me once -- shame on you. Fool me twice -- shame on me."

Doubtful that I will choose to purchase brand new again for quite a while...

the reason I paid full price is that tweeter upgraded me from vista > vantage > spire! what a great service.

I paid $2100.00 for my lexicon mc-8b dealers are still selling it today for $7,000 the told my they could probably give me 10% off thats a lot more
depreciation than any electrostatic speakers.


one thing you should realize is that home theater is bigger than ever before
also since the internet more people have more information about Hi Fi equipment ( especially ability to trade on the used market) bringing Martin Logan to the forefront of the consumer. I do think
that having to many models is a little dis concerning when you pay 10k for a set of speakers you would like to think that you have the best thing since sliced bread but then a better slice comes around a few years later. but on the other hand some speaker manufactures churn out the same crap year after year after year is that what you really want.

hey look at the car industry buy a new car and once you drive it of the lot it degrades in value it gets nicks in the paint and whatever and a new car is a lot more money than a pair of summits . I think most of you guys enjoy the speakers better than a new car I know I do.try to get your investment out of a car

I really do not know what point I am trying to make if at all but if you paid
full price just be proud and enjoy and stop looking at the auctions on ebay or audiogon martin logan gives great service especially to new buyers!

As an early adopter of The Summits I am not pleased that the original has reached EOL so fast. It is a great speaker and unless the suceeding Summit X is twice as good I doubt that I will be investing in the X. The price increases in the Summit over the past three years were substantial, probably amounting to considerably more than increases in cost to manufacture. This most likely resulted from the wide acceptance of The Summit as an overachiever at the $10K level. I also belive that as they raised the price they lost market share, and decided that something new, or at least something perceived as new was called for. Rumors have the Summit X listing at around $15K. I personally think that would be a mistake, especially in tight economic times.

DrJRapp said:

As an early adopter of The Summits I am not pleased that the original has reached EOL so fast. It is a great speaker and unless the suceeding Summit X is twice as good I doubt that I will be investing in the X. The price increases in the Summit over the past three years were substantial, probably amounting to considerably more than increases in cost to manufacture. This most likely resulted from the wide acceptance of The Summit as an overachiever at the $10K level. I also belive that as they raised the price they lost market share, and decided that something new, or at least something perceived as new was called for. Rumors have the Summit X listing at around $15K. I personally think that would be a mistake, especially in tight economic times.

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Nor should you invest in the new speaker.

What I see so many people fail to realize for whatever reason in this industry is that just because a company comes out with a new model, it doesn't mean that you have to buy it or that what you have is no longer without value.

Im sure the Summit X will do some things that the Summit will not, but many car companies don't make a model for more than three years without upgrading it.

Those Summits have a lot of music in them. Unless you've upgraded the rest of your system to about $250k worth of components, you can still wring a lot more performance out of your system. They are great speakers.

While the short-term value may be down right not, knowing that ML will make replacement parts forever will keep the value of these speakers at the ten year point much higher than they might be from another mfr.

So if you love your Summits, what difference does it make that they are worth less used right now? If you paid more for them to get them a year or two ago, you've had that much more time to enjoy them.

The trick in this game is to realise and recognise classic components - then buy them! The Summit is one such component, to my mind.

What that means is that it will continue to perform for many years at a level that is better than most of the opposition at the given price point. Hell, I still own an Ascent/Descent combo, and I still think it wipes the floor with most stuff out now at the same price and more than the Ascent/Descent originally cost.

So if you bought the Summit early on, keep it! If there is no upgrade package for it, it will NOT in any way imaginable be worth going for the X for what it will cost you - if it ever materialises.

There are Summit owners' on this site who have gone out and bought the CLS. That should tell most that while there have been advances in ESL technology, they haven't been massive and while the latest may be a bit better, it will probably be just that - a tiny bit better.

Have I said anything new here? Probably not, but I typed it in, so I'll post it

maybe we should talk plasma or LCD HD tv's I really would not even like to talk about what I spent on my first one let alone cheaper ones today blow it away.
at least with audio the quality to price ratio does not like double in 2-3 years!!!


I am new here but for a fan site Martin Logan gets picked on a lot here .Lets tear into some other brands for a while that would be more fun.

one word

CLS


They are timeless and still blow away any speaker besides the CLX

Best thing is they are a damn near 30 year old design. They were before their time with amplifier technology just catching up in recent years

Brilliant post Fish - and C.A.P. you're probably VERY right. I have never heard the CLS, but I have the CLX and other full range stats. CLX is by far and away the best stat I have ever heard, and I feel sure the CLS won't be that far behind it.

tonepub said:

Those Summits have a lot of music in them. Unless you've upgraded the rest of your system to about $250k worth of components, you can still wring a lot more performance out of your system. They are great speakers.

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Since you brought it up, I would like to hear what you would spend the $250K on.

I, too, was surprised...

...to learn about the discontinuation of the Summit, which is why I wanted to get them now while I could still get a great price on an almost new pair. (There are a few more out there, by the way, but they're going fast.) Being in that position, I am not concerned about resale value, but I am still a little perplexed by the decision to discontinue a model that only last year received a "product of the year" award. I would guess that ML thinks they need to spread out their line a little, that the Vantage, Spire and Summit are too close together in look and price. Oh, well. As people have said above, this happens elsewhere. At least ML is still in business. I bought my first computer, an Osborne 1, about six weeks before that company went belly up. Not a pleasant experience!

Best wishes,
Craig

The way I hear it is that the "X" will be an upgrade and available to current Summit owners. So why all the hand-wringing and kvetching?

SundayNiagara said:

The way I hear it is that the "X" will be an upgrade and available to current Summit owners. So why all the hand-wringing and kvetching?

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Not sure that's true Sunday - there was a recent thread that threw a lot of doubts on it.

I'll stand by my post.

Fairplay - I'm not sure so I'll take no sides...

SundayNiagara said:

I'll stand by my post.

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This is still my understanding too...

Yes, it's a concern to me too. Continual model changeovers say one of two things to me:

1: Planned obsolesence (ie - making a fool of the consumer)

or;

2: The original model was poorly thought over and released before it was perfected.

Both are very bad. Exactly - look at Musical Fidelity - they always made the "Best" [their words] components until they released their next one, when suddenly the old one was crap and you had to have the next.

Yes, progress must happen, but when you're spending as much as we are you expect perfection to be pretty damn nigh, and hence very little room for improvement and hence, very few model changeovers.

Here is a thought.

I do not understand why some people feel the urge to buy every new speaker or product out there.There is such a thing as being patient and see what develops.I have owned and listened to many speakers.I never buy anything new because of the absurd markups on these products.Many items will be half price within 1 or 2 years of being released.I am a firm believer that if you are patient a great deal will eventually turn up.Most manufacturers will release new products every year or two,that is just the business.You do not have to buy them,just show a little restraint and keep your money.Just remember to be patient.

MOON said:

It seems to me since Gayle Sanders sold ML that the new model changes have come out at a fast rate compared to before.Don't get me wrong here , I am all for advancement and love ML speakers.

It seems the summit wasn't out too long before it was discontinued and prices fell fast on remaining models. That's great if you are in the market , but not for the early adopters of the summit model.Just one look at what Musical Fidelity did for themselves cahanging models at a very high rate - no more Noth American disributor. I am not sure if that is still the case.

Do you think the new models should be phased in over a longer time frame? I think that would insure that models would hold a higher resale value on the used market. It seems to me anyway , that ML's resale value falls off substancially in the used market compared to years before.Interested in your opinions.

Cheers

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As long as you have true innovation, I don't see a problem with releasing new products. CLX is a great innovation, having heard it.

Summit X, at $15K, seems dead in the water to me, especially if there is no upgrade path for existing owners. People will either buy the Spire with the new CLX crossover at under $10K or reach for the CLX at a little over $20K. This means death to the Summit.

There are just too many products in the ESL line, which confuses the customer. I see Vista or Vantage dropping off also, eventually. If ML were smart, they would create Vista X and Vantage X with upgradable CLX crossover technology for those owners, and then kill either of those models off.

MOON said:

It seems the summit wasn't out too long before it was discontinued and prices fell fast on remaining models. That's great if you are in the market.

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I was the benefactor of one of those Great Deals.

User211 said:

There are Summit owners' on this site who have gone out and bought the CLS.

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Craig has had both longer than I have, so his comparisons on the 2 will be more accurate.

I aquired the CLS a week ago and spent about 5 days listening to and comparing both the Summits and CLS.

The Summits are much more transparent in my opinion.
The soundstage on the CLS much much wider and deeper.
To me the background was much quieter on the CLS.
At this point I don't know if I'm going to hang on to both.
If I had a spare room I would,(too many kids)

Currently I've taken the CLS apart to restain,(with some guidance from C.A.P.), and since the panels were made 18 years ago I'm ordering new panels tomorrow.

We'll see how the CLS sound with the new panels before making that desicion.

User211 said:

That should tell most that while there have been advances in ESL technology, they haven't been massive and while the latest may be a bit better, it will probably be just that - a tiny bit better.

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Not Better, Different.
Although in terms of Hybrids the Summits are much better than my old Odysseys IMHO