Continuing review of the CLX by J. Valin

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jfm

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Those of you have read The Absolute Sound for some time will be familiar with Jonathan Valin's reviews. Of particular interest to MLOG is that he was a long-time CLS owner. His reviews of the CLS, and the Sound Lab M1, remain one of the best ever that the magazine has produced, in my opinion.

I've been asking him about the CLX, which he is currently reviewing. Here's an excerpt...

Posted: 28, Sep Sun 2008 2:24 am Post subject:
jfm,

All right. Here's where things stand after considerable night-and-day listening. Even though they are still breaking in, I can already tell you that the CLXes will not be the equals of the $100k Symposium Acoustics Panoramas or the $200k MBL 101 X-Tremes--the two best speakers I've heard in my home--in dynamic range and scale (particularly at the frequency extremes but also in the midrange), three-dimensionality, treble extension and purity and power (the Pans are the best in the first two areas, the Xes in the last), bass/midrange/treble density of tone color (particularly bass), and mid-to-low bass extension and power (both the Pans and especially the X-Tremes are considerably better). They already appear to be at least the equals of the Pans and the Xes in colorless neutrality. (They are the most invisible planars I’ve ever heard—lower in driver/enclosure/crossover coloration than the Quad ESL-2905s and the very-low-in-coloration Pans, though not as low in enclosure coloration as the un-enclosed Xes.) At this point, and it is still very early, they seem to be very close to if not the equals of the Pans in soundstage width/depth/height (though nothing touches the MBLs in soundstaging) and higher in midrange resolution and transparency to sources than any speaker I've yet heard, cone, ribbon, omni, or electrostatic. If you want to hear how well or poorly a recording was engineered (above about 55-60Hz, that is) the CLXes may be impossible to beat. They already sound more “different” from record to record than any other speaker of my experience, literally changing their sound with the sound of the recording, and they already reveal more details of miking and engineering than any other speaker of my experience. (If, for instance, you want to hear what back-up singers are actually singing in a dense mix, the CLXes will be a revelation--not only will you hear every word they sing, assuming that the engineering allows you to hear it; you will also hear the individual timbres of their voices as clearly as you hear that of the lead vocalist.) Minus the low bass and some density (or weight) of tone in the midband, they are also very very realistic sounding from the upper bass through the mid-treble, a little less so in the very top treble and much less so in the bass (although they are very detailed in the mid-to-upper bass and very flat and seamless from the bass through the midband).

Though their lack of bass extension and power, their utter neutrality (which is to say, their lack of artificial warmth, thanks to plumped up upper and midbass), their slight want of density of tone color (particularly in the bass), their pickiness about rooms and setup (for which, see below), and their absolute honesty when it comes to sources (if a recording sucks they'll tell you, albeit without making it unduly unpleasant), they are going to be controversial, just like the original CLSes. They are also, IMO and with only a couple days short of two weeks listening experience, truly great loudspeakers, but then I like a less warmed-up, more neutral, more transparent balance, a wide/deep/tall soundstage, an abundance of detail (as long as it isn’t presented clinically—which is to say without a persuasive amount of natural tone color--and it is not presented clinically by the CLXes), see-into and see-through transparency, lifelike transient speed, and natural air and bloom, all of which the CLXes have in abundance. I'm also not that concerned with low bass, which is a big factor here. (I love it when it's good but I hate it when it isn't and would rather do without it than hear it droning along, muddying up the rest of the sound.) I predict that the CLXes will end up keeping company with the Pans and the Xes in my personal pantheon. Though I don't believe they will end up being fully the match of either, it is only fair to note that they are one-quarter to one-eighth their price.

As for amps…the CLXes, like many other stats, are a difficult load, particularly in the treble where their impedance dips down to 0.7 ohms. Most tube amp can’t cope with this near short-circuit and will markedly roll off the treble. (I tried the superb Air Tight ATM-3 and it did just that, though it sounded gorgeous otherwise.) The Swiss-made-and-engineered Soulution 710 that I am currently using is a solid-state amp that has tremendous buzz going for it. Among other kudos, it was named the reference amplifier of the very picky and very-into-specsmanship German magazine, Stereo, scoring 100% in sound quality (which I believe is a first). While I thought the 710 might be a little on the cool and analytical side at first, I now believe it: a) needed to break in a bit and to warm up more after turn-on (it takes about a half hour to an hour for it to shed a very slight dry, sibilant graininess and start to sound more dead-neutral, finely detailed, and transparent than just about anything I’ve heard in solid-state), and b) is accurately reflecting the sound of what it’s driving (the CLXes also needed to break in—and the room needed treatment). That said, it will never be a luscious, liquid, gorgeous-sounding solid-state amplifier like an MBL 9011 and it will never have the bloom (or action), three-dimensionality, and tonal weight of the pentode-tube ARC 610T (though it has surprisingly good air, bloom, and light for a transistor job). I will, of course, try other amps, but let me go on record to say that the Soulution 710 is pretty goddamn marvelous and may be tough to beat in this application.

curious,

My second room is roughly 16' x 15' x 12'. And, yes, I do plan to try out other room treatment (like most planar dipoles, the CLXes can really light up the walls, especially since they are more "directional" than other dipoles, thanks to the curvilinear mid/treble panel). Like the CLSes, these are among the pickiest speakers I've dealt with. They like to see a certain proportion of soft and hard surfaces which can only be adjudged by trial-and-error; they have to be at least three-to-four feet from rear walls and three or so from sidewalls. They have to be tilted and toed-in precisely the same on either side. They like some weight added to their chassis. And they may benefit from further stabilization (I use to use adjustable curtain rods extending from the ceilings to the tops of the CLSes' frames to really "lock" them in place.)

I don't believe that anything short of one of ML's subwoofers is going to turn the CLXes' bass from anemic to awesome. ML is quite honest about this, unlike some other manufacturers I can think of. They spec the CLX as flat (or within 3dB of flat) from 23kHz to 56Hz, and that seems almost exactly right. While "room boost" is going to fill in the bass a little bit, it can't turn a speaker that is already dropping off 3dB a little below 60Hz into an MBL X-treme. This is something that potential purchasers are going to need to carefully consider. The CLX is not going to deliver what it hasn't promised. What it is going to do, thanks to exceptionally low levels of coloration and high levels of detail, is reproduce the transients of bass-range instruments with extraordinary clarity, meaning that you will hear the attack of a run of notes on, say, a bass fiddle with amazing realism and clarity. What you won't hear quite as fully and realistically (with deep-reaching instruments) is the steady-state tone color that follows the attack. In the mid-to-low bass the CLX is a little like one of those coloring books that restaurants used to give away; you get the outlines of notes with utter clarity, but the shapes could use a little filling in.

I don't want to over-emphasize this. I like the CLXes bass, as far as it goes, and much prefer its slightly desaturated clarity to a one-note thrum or a muddy blur. Once again, low bass is not a deal-breaker for me (or why would I have loved the Mini IIs, which actually have better bass the CLXes). If it is for you, look elsewhere (like the Quad ESL-2905s) or consider a quite reasonably-priced pair of MartinLogan subwoofers, which are outfitted with a custom crossover tailored precisely for the CLX. For under-$30k you will then have a full-range system that may be competitive with systems that cost quite a lot more. (I'm sure I'll find out for myself before the review process is done.)

Jon

You can read the whole thread by clicking on:

http://forums.avguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=3863&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
 
As for amps…the CLXes, like many other stats, are a difficult load, particularly in the treble where their impedance dips down to 0.7 ohms. Most tube amp can’t cope with this near short-circuit and will markedly roll off the treble....



Hmmm. Seems I got crucified for saying this a few months ago.
 
"Most tube amp can’t cope"


Hmmm. Seems I got crucified for saying this a few months ago.



Not me Jeff !

As for Valin from TAS, IMO, he has made an overly generalized statement, for again, IMO there are plenty of well designed 'wide bandwidth' valve amps out there which do our panels justice ! Some will state that they create such a euphoric midrange that one dosen't even notice the high end shortcomings.......YMMV !!
 
Now, now Jeff.

I'm thinking we've all gotten through that and are ready to move on.

GG
 
As for amps…the CLXes, like many other stats, are a difficult load, particularly in the treble where their impedance dips down to 0.7 ohms. Most tube amp can’t cope with this near short-circuit and will markedly roll off the treble....



Hmmm. Seems I got crucified for saying this a few months ago.

Jeff, because I respect what you say regarding audio, when I saw your comment I thought I'd check out my own tube amp. When comparing it to my Krell 400xi, specifically for treble roll off, I thought there might be some treble roll off with the Jolida 1000. But, if there was, it was very difficult for me to hear, so I wasn't too concerned. Later, when I replaced my driver tubes with a different brand, I noticed that the highs seemed more clear. So much so, that if there is a little high treble roll off, I can't tell.
 
I think this is an amazing statement...

"I predict that the CLXes will end up keeping company with the Pans and the Xes in my personal pantheon. Though I don't believe they will end up being fully the match of either, it is only fair to note that they are one-quarter to one-eighth their price."
 
That's a good bit of writing... and it makes me think of a few things:

1) That I didn't hear the MBL 101 at the HK show with any decent material. The main thing I picked up on was the resolution, which is extremely high, especially when driven by top end MBL electronics. It actually uses the same omnis as the ones featured in the London show, which also showed similar resolution, but were driven by lesser electronics. The 101 soundstage was also monumental.

2) A 160 Watt Jadis WILL drive the CLX, to how loud I do not know, but definately to reasonable levels. But boy, can you "hear" the Jadis through them, which is no bad thing. If you buy CLXs, be incredibly careful about your amp selection. The Jadis will give you a musical and very involving presentation, but I can imagine other amps sounding totally different with them.

3) Nice to hear the Soulution amps featured at the HK show do not suck!:)
 
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That's a good bit of writing... and it makes me think of a few things:

1) That I didn't hear the MBL 101 at the HK show with any decent material. The main thing I picked up on was the resolution, which is extremely high, especially when driven by top end MBL electronics. It actually uses the same omnis as the ones featured in the London show, which also showed similar resolution, but were driven by lesser electronics. The 101 soundstage was also monumental.

2) A 160 Watt Jadis WILL drive the CLX, to how loud I do not know, but definately to reasonable levels. But boy, can you "hear" the Jadis through them, which is no bad thing. If you buy CLXs, be incredibly careful about your amp selection. The Jadis will give you a musical and very involving presentation, but I can imagine other amps sounding totally different with them.

3) Nice to hear the Soulution amps featured at the HK show do not suck!:)

I think that it's a good example of a speaker to reveal the character of the amplifiers and other electronics behind it.

THe Symposium speakers were definitely very intriguing, but talk about complete lack of WAF! Ouch.... Not to mention they are not a real product. Peter has been "Working" on them for 20 years and they are no closer now to release than they were five years ago.

If you've ever had a chance to hear the giant MBL's they are pretty spectacular. However, those 200k speakers need about another 500k worth of electronics and a HUGE room to do their thing properly. Any of you attending CES this year should check them out, it's definitely worth the experience!
 
Hola, and I agreed with the roll-off of highs on tube amps, but that roll-off makes in my system to have the cymbals where they belong, with the drummer, and not in front of me. The stage and the 3 dimensional sound with tubes, (in my system) is so natural and well balanced. I do not need more highs, I have plenty in my CLSIIz. I always say in my system, because is here where I can try different things. SS cymbals are too forward and my brain understands like if the plastic man is the drummer, and he can strech his arms to get the cymbals 2 meters or 3 in front of him (little bit to the right front or left front), but with tubes, I do get the right position of the drummer. I stop searching for specs, and started to trust in my ears. Remember that my liking, does not necessary must be yours!...this is what I do like from tubes...some might agreed with me, and of course others will not. Guys, it is a matter of liking and forget if SS is better or tubes are better...trust your ears, and choose the ones that you liked most!...happy listening,
Roberto.
 
wait. I fear that this may devolve into yet another Tubes vs. SS debate, about which we have already had many.

Valin said "most" tube amps, not all,and let's move on from there, and watch for further comments specific to the CLX matching with specific amplifiers.

cheers.
 
Sorry, couldn't stand taking that one...

I'll be curious when my CLX's get here to see how they do with tubes.
We always have plenty of that on hand, so I'm sure we'll try a few other
things as well with them.

However, with the same impedance as the Summit/Vantage/Spire, i.e. .7 ohms at 20k, I'm not imagining the results will be much different.

But we will investigate thoroughly!

Can't wait to get em.....
 
Jeff, of course, we are looking forward to your review. How well it mates with the CJ350 would be my first question!
 
However, with the same impedance as the Summit/Vantage/Spire, i.e. .7 ohms at 20k, I'm not imagining the results will be much different....


The amount of musical content at that frequency let alone the ability to critically hear and understand ????? Sorry I don't buy into it, for a missmatched SS amp will fare worse for the simple fact that it will "attempt" to produce the signal and its 'audible' distortion will sound worse than a Valve amp that 'rolls off' the attempt ......yes....no ???
 
The amount of musical content at that frequency let alone the ability to critically hear and understand ????? Sorry I don't buy into it, for a missmatched SS amp will fare worse for the simple fact that it will "attempt" to produce the signal and its 'audible' distortion will sound worse than a Valve amp that 'rolls off' the attempt ......yes....no ???

I don't either. I have been listening to MLs for nearly 20 years and I ALWAYS prefer them tube driven. End of story! I remember a physics experiment at school - keep your hands up if you can still hear something with each 1KHz increment. Barely anyone (aged 15-16) hand their hands up above 16KHz in a class of 30.
 
Sorry, couldn't stand taking that one...

I'll be curious when my CLX's get here to see how they do with tubes.
We always have plenty of that on hand, so I'm sure we'll try a few other
things as well with them.

However, with the same impedance as the Summit/Vantage/Spire, i.e. .7 ohms at 20k, I'm not imagining the results will be much different.
Keep up the good work Jeff as I enjoy your candor with regards to audio equipment - even when a specific group you may be talking about takes it as an attack instead of an opinion.
 
Keep up the good work Jeff as I enjoy your candor with regards to audio equipment - even when a specific group you may be talking about takes it as an attack instead of an opinion.

Hey, don't take what I said as an attack... I just know what I like:) If Jeff likes SS and MLs, that is cool too!
 
Hey, don't take what I said as an attack... I just know what I like:) If Jeff likes SS and MLs, that is cool too!
Not to speak for Jeff as he does it very well himself, but I believe he likes both SS and Tube, and so do I. I have heard both sound crappy and great.

People, in general, seem to get very defensive when their equipment or source of preference gets challenged. Me I could care less what people say, as like you, I know what I like and I sit back and enjoy it.
 
People, in general, seem to get very defensive when their equipment or source of preference gets challenged. Me I could care less what people say, as like you, I know what I like and I sit back and enjoy it.

I think you mean "I couldn't care less...", which is the exact opposite of what you wrote. Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Back to talking about our favourite speakers!
 
Really, it's always case by case...

Just when you think two things aren't going to work together, you find magic in a combination you never suspected. I just haven't heard a tube amp with the Summits that I enjoy more than the Premier 350. That doesn't mean it isn't out there!

Right now, I'm listening to the new Meridian DSP7200's and they are pretty cool. I've never been a huge fan of powered speakers and DSP room correction, but these are outstanding.

So you never know when something incredible will cross your path!
 
I think you mean "I couldn't care less...", which is the exact opposite of what you wrote. Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Back to talking about our favourite speakers!
I ain't herd this wus also a gramark and spellin' forum? Favourite?
 
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