Speaker positioning, observation

Hi User,

Appreciate the clarification on your first post.

Out of curiosity, what was the distance from the back wall to the panel before and what is it now?

GG

GG - about 4 feet now from panel to wall, with the woofer front about 2.5 feet. Previously, both Ascents and sub about 2.5 feet. The new arrangement does seem to work well - the slight niggle I guess is that while the kickdrum is placed back in the soundstage, the rest of the drums are not!

No tilt=Think Monolith's

Sounds like you are starting to enjoy what Monolith owners have always enjoyed and loved.If you notice the Monolith's panel is arranged with absolutely no tilt.This is one of the reasons I prefer them.:devil:

Bear in mind, that all these "distance from wall", "toe-in", "tilt angle", etc tweaks are all room/acoustics dependant and changing one, or more, variables, may affect all the others! For example, in my family/listening room, for the past two years (prior to any acoustic treatments), I got the best bass response and imaging with "extreme toe-in." After recently adding a couple bass traps, I found my "extreme toe-in" didn't sound "right" anymore. Now, the imaging snaps into better focus with "minimal" toe-in, as guided by the ML flashlight technique. This really illustrates the "domino effect" of changing room acoustics. I expect I'll need even more "placement tweaking" once I get the rest of my acoustic treatments in place.

sleepysurf said:

For example, in my family/listening room, for the past two years (prior to any acoustic treatments), I got the best bass response and imaging with "extreme toe-in." After recently adding a couple bass traps, I found my "extreme toe-in" didn't sound "right" anymore.

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Sleepy, I have a hard time understanding how toe-in could have any effect at all on bass response. Remember that bass response is relatively omnidirectional and in fact one of the woofers in each of your speakers is pointed to the floor. Toe-in doesn't even really affect panel "response" so much as it does imaging and soundstaging. Where your speakers are placed in the room will have the most impact on bass response. More than likely, the toe-in just affected your "perception" of the bass response which was skewed due to other factors.

Probably you were covering up other acoustic issues with the extreme toe-in (some of which may have been bass reflection issues). If your bass response was somewhat muddying your sound, then the extreme toe-in could increase the focus of your panel on your sweet spot, overriding that muddying effect somewhat. Then, when you put the acoustic panels in, you cleared up the bass reflection which was muddying your imaging and soundstage and you were better able to hear the extreme focus issues created by the toe-in.

Regardless, your point is valid. Only by taming the acoustics of the room first, can we then seek to obtain proper speaker positioning and work on upgrading our other gear to get the most performance out of our speakers. I think many people get about 70% or less of the performance capabilities of their gear because of room acoustics issues. Kind of like buying a Porsche but never getting it past second gear.

Rich, I should clarify... the bass trapping eliminated a room mode, and allowed me to reposition my speakers so they're now 4 ft from the front wall (which was previously too "boomy"). At this position, I found "lesser toe-in" yields better imaging. You're right that "toe-in" has little or no direct effect on bass.

User211 said:

GG - about 4 feet now from panel to wall, with the woofer front about 2.5 feet. Previously, both Ascents and sub about 2.5 feet. The new arrangement does seem to work well - the slight niggle I guess is that while the kickdrum is placed back in the soundstage, the rest of the drums are not!

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User,

Sorry I broke something. You'll probably have to play with the sub position to resolve the drum placement issue.

I trust you heard the increase in the overall soudstage presentation, better depth, less sound coming directly from the panel, etc.

Good luck.

GG

I originally had my Odysseys about 2 feet from the wall - for about a week and just kept dragging them in...and in...and into the room. My wife came down and said.... 'Did you move those speakers?' I said - 'No, why do you ask?' Anyway - they are about 5 feet from the wall....

I have a descent - and the only place for it seems to be in a corner... I don't use it for 2 channel anymore. I just find that the snap of the panels goes away just a touch. But, I wonder if I could move it a bit - if that would make things better - for 2 channel listening at least.

I find the sub helps poor recordings - but hurts good ones....

timm said:

I have a descent - and the only place for it seems to be in a corner... I don't use it for 2 channel anymore. I just find that the snap of the panels goes away just a touch. But, I wonder if I could move it a bit - if that would make things better - for 2 channel listening at least.

I find the sub helps poor recordings - but hurts good ones....

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Timm,
I had a similar problem when I purchased my Vantages. The sound stage seemed to be affected somehow when I had the sub on as opposed to off. But when I moved into a bigger room I tried using the depth sub again. At first the same problem occured, but my dealer suggested that I should place the sub in the listening spot while my wife and I crawled around on the floor . Anyways, I found that the corner was not the best place, in my room at least, for the depth and ended up placing it along the side wall about 1/3 of the way into the room. The process we were encouraged to do was place the sub in the listening chair while playing some music with a good bass line. Once the music starts, you crawl around on your hands and knees along the walls listening for the cleanest bass that is most defined and articulate. As you do this mark the spot with an object and continue crawling. After you have finished, go back to those spots you marked and reevaluate. After settling on which one works best then place the sub in that spot and listen to music from your seating position. You may find that you may have to still move the sub a few inches to the left or right, but for the most part it will sound best there. At this point we adjusted the phase switch and swithched the crossover point to 30hz. Volume is now at 4 1/2, and 25hz control is flat. While obviously my situation is most likely different from yours the method may still work. I have read that setting the crossover point at or near where the main speakers leave off is a good starting point. Since this has been done I now get the weight at the bottom end without hurting the soundstage.

Glen

GG - the logical thing to try is to bring the sub forward as well, I suppose. Your assertion about soundstanging is completely correct.

One thing about sub placement - at least in my room. If I place it in the middle of the Ascents (and the middle of the room) it sounds pretty awful. It could be the bass waves are bouncing of the walls and re-converging in the centre. Whatever it is, the effect is NOT pleasant. An offset is definately required to eliminate this effect.

I might try bringing the Ascents forward another foot - it's going to look odd but because it's a dedicated room I can do it...

I used the flashlight technique a while ago and liked it. I left it like that for months. A few days ago I moved the speakers back about 6 inches (puts them about 4.5 feet into a 13 foot room) and with no toe in at all. This toe in softened a little grain Ive been trying to tame. I like it for now but time will tell.

timm said:

...I have a descent - and the only place for it seems to be in a corner... I don't use it for 2 channel anymore. I just find that the snap of the panels goes away just a touch. But, I wonder if I could move it a bit - if that would make things better - for 2 channel listening at least...

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For lack of a better place, I always had my sub in the corner. I've now placed a GIK Pillar Trap in that corner (see pic), with great impact, and relocated my sub to a side wall. If feasible, I strongly suggest you try something like that!

Sleepy-
How do you like your sub trap? I have two Jamo Sub650s (650watt peak- 12" front fire) that I was going to place diagonal from one another but would only run two for movie time and/or showing off. I didn't know if one would handle all that bass.

The bass trap is great. I previously borrowed an ASC Tube Trap, and was going to go that route, but they're quite pricey, and I couldn't find any deals right now for a used one. My corner can't accommodate the standard RealTraps model, but the GIK Pillar Trap proved perfect. I paired it with one of their new Table Traps (placed on a side wall across the room), and the two of them (more so the Pillar) have cut down my boomy bass by ~50% (to my ears, no measurements yet). Two of the acoustic panels I have on order are 2' x 2' and I will purposely just "lean" them against the wall for added bass trapping. I only use my sub for Home Theater, and don't really care if it's in the "ideal" location or not. I ended up placing it between two chairs on a side wall (see pic), so we can also use it as an end table! I plan on refinishing it with faux granite, to match my rack. Lucky for me, my wife has been cool with these changes!

OK . Ill give my .02 here. This I do know The older designs that do not use micro perf technology need to be as close to 90* as can be. Most newer designs will benefit from this too. The toe is usually very minimal. When you have the room set up with the speakers the toe is a final tweak. Not a early one to adjust. The distance from the front wall is huge. the further away from the front wall the better. At least 3 to 4 feet minimal. 5 to 6 is preferred. The rear wall should be at least 3 to 4 feet behind you to stop from getting bass heavy. The distance from the speakers them selves should be double the distance from inside edge to inside edge. So if you have as in my situation 68 inched edge to edge. My head is at around 136 inches away in my seat. This is now exactly what Martin Logan is saying with their directions with the CLX. I have used this method with every Dipole I have had and it works well. The larger the panel the bigger the room you will need. They CLS are a exception as they have such a wide dispersion that almost NO toe is needed. As I said, Toe is a final tweak. The Height of the panel is key also. Your ears must be at the mid section of the panel or just below it. Martin Logan lowered their panels for a reason. If you have CLS you NEED stands. Refer to my system. In some instances when room is odd shaped forward tilt can be of benefit. When your near field listening with a low chair. You may need room treatment too. The single largest factor in all of our systems is the room.

This isn't a positioning point, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway after C.A.Ps point about rooms. When I moved house over 2 years ago, the change from brick walls to plasterboard walls was a real factor i.e. brick walls are far more reflective, and plasterboard walls are acoustically deadening (is there such a word?).

Result? Big uplift in sound quality I was very pleased.

Kaboomnash said:

It is tough for me to achieve the "5 foot out" rule, but I do plan on trying to remove some of the slant from the panels.
Did you use longer aftermarket spikes? I am using the stock spikes that came with my Vantages. I will have to see how much thread is available to back out for the lift in the rear.

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I raised the back spikes of my Vantages, leveled them, made sure all measurements were equal and confirmed the toe-in. Giving them a test drive the spouse commented that they "sound clearer". So that is a nice free tweak. The unfortunate part is that the top of the panels are still only 24" out from the wall, best case I could maybe get 4-6" more.
Oh well, they still sound much better than any other speaker I have had in my home. Jammed some Police and Supertramp SACD's before dinner.

Lee

Gordon Gray said:

Gordon,

You are very welcome. I'm glad you like the IC's and got the results that you have.

As far as the new placement goes, I've had good luck with the five (5) foot out from the back wall position / vertical azimuth close to perpendicular over the years and encourage all, who have the room, to give it a try.

GG

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Touching on first point of this post, I have found using the flats on the front and the spikes on the back (screwed all the way in on both) positions the panel right about perpendicular to the ground. This also allows very easy movement of the speakers when you are messing with positioning. I would also agree that they need to be out at least 3 feet, but it took me a long time getting the wife adjusted to these "panel things in the middle of the room" (a few inches at a time ).

Kaboomnash said:

I raised the back spikes of my Vantages, leveled them, made sure all measurements were equal and confirmed the toe-in. Giving them a test drive the spouse commented that they "sound clearer". So that is a nice free tweak. The unfortunate part is that the top of the panels are still only 24" out from the wall, best case I could maybe get 4-6" more.
Oh well, they still sound much better than any other speaker I have had in my home. Jammed some Police and Supertramp SACD's before dinner.

Lee

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Lee, can you measure the distance between the floor and the bottom of the woofer enclosure for the front and back when your panel is at 90 degrees? I really need the difference between rear and front measurements to see if 2" spikes in the rear and 1.5" in the front would get me the desired panel angle. Thanks!

Brian_74 said:

Lee, can you measure the distance between the floor and the bottom of the woofer enclosure for the front and back when your panel is at 90 degrees? I really need the difference between rear and front measurements to see if 2" spikes in the rear and 1.5" in the front would get me the desired panel angle. Thanks!

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hey Brian,

My Vantage panels are not exactly at 90 degrees, but within 1/4" (est.). The ML's are sitting on hardwood floors with stock spikes and 3/32" thick spike cups under them. I have the front spikes screwed in all the way, and the back spikes are backed out until about only three threads are inside and the knurled collar tightened against the base. I could probably remove the knurled front collars and get the front spikes further in to get closer to 90 degrees but for now very happy.
Measuring the very corner/side of the wood cabinet (not the panel) I have 1 7/32" front and 1 23/32 rear.
Doesn't seem to take much to get them within 90 degrees of the floor.

Lee