Signal Cable - IC's, power, speaker cables . . Rich?

Rich,

This one's definitely for you since I know you are, or will be using these on your Summits and Sanders mono blocks, as well as your CD player. Input is welcome from anyone else using these cables as well!

Questions:

With all of the cables out there, and the obvious quality of your entire system, why did you end up chosing the "within reach of the average audiophile budget", SignalCable stuff?

Specifically for the Summits . . .

Would you recommend the "Magic Power Cord", 20 amp version, or 15 amp version? I do have two dedicated outlets using the PS Audio Power Port outlets, which I believe are rated at 20 amps. I just don't know if the Summits will accept, or even need 20 amp connector option.

The specifications on the SignalCable website state: " 20A female conector is ONLY applicable to components (normally high powered amplifiers) that REQUIRES a 20A IEC, 20A male connector requires a 20A wall connector.

The Summits have 2 200 watt ICE amps each, so . . . which should we use?

Specifically for the Sanders amps, 2 channel or mono blocks . . .

Basically the same questions as above. 15A or 20 amp version for Sanders amp?

Right now I'm using Kimber Kable Hero IC's, which are copper. I noticed that SignalCable's IC's and speaker cable are silver based. I'm using an Oppo right now for a CD player and I'm wondering if the silver based cable may not be the right choice at this time. This should open up a debate . . . copper versus silver!

I'll wait to hear everyone's feedback before placing an oder!

Joe M.

I don't speak for Rich, but I will tell you that there is absolutely no need to drop tons of $$$$ for pricey cables. Spending a few bucks for a decent cable that needs to run 5+ meters is one thing, but in my opinion the claims, 'science,' and advertising centered around cables is BY FAR the most overblown in the industry. Rich probably has the means to buy a few pair of ultra expensive Cardas or MIT cables, but instead opted to buy some of Sanders amps and I am guessing those amps had a lot more bang for the buck.

Most (good) speaker companies pour large sums of money into the R&D of their respective designs. Before any speaker hits the market, it has no doubt been tested with a wide variety of music, different rooms, and evaluated by many different pairs of ears. When you listen to the Summit vs another quality speaker like B&W or Wilson you either like the way it looks and the way it sounds, or you don't (with the associated electronics and music). Try making a comparison between two ICs both claiming to enhance your system beyond any measurable limit. What garbage.

With cables, it seems all too easy to push a product (the cable) that will yield a very nice profit vs another (the speaker) that took years to get 'right.'

Regarding the copper vs silver debate - I think silver cables are more bright (some say detailed) vs copper. But that is just me. Go grab or borrow a pair of silver ICs and see how they work.

Yes, cables do make a difference and if you go from a cable like Kimber to a silver IC from a place like Signal or Whitezombie, I expect you to come back stating that they both had marked impacts.

Erik

eknuds01 said:

I don't speak for Rich, but I will tell you that there is absolutely no need to drop tons of $$$$ for pricey cables. Spending a few bucks for a decent cable that needs to run 5+ meters is one thing, but in my opinion the claims, 'science,' and advertising centered around cables is BY FAR the most overblown in the industry. Rich probably has the means to buy a few pair of ultra expensive Cardas or MIT cables, but instead opted to buy some of Sanders amps and I am guessing those amps had a lot more bang for the buck.

Erik

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Erik,

Thanks for the feedback.

It's the "reasonable" price of the SignalCable products that has me interested in them. That and I value Rich's opinion, as he seems to do quite a bit of research AND actually "tests" things in his system. I definitely do not want to spend a fortune on cables, but with the little experimentation I have done with IC's and speaker cables, I KNOW they do make a difference! I haven't tried different power cables yet.

Joe

I use the Signal Cable Power Cords and think they are a great value. For 15 or 20amp, what do your components require?

The metals used in a cable....Here is a cut from a review and something worth thinking about:

"Many cable companies focus on metallurgy in their marketing propaganda to justify costs. With ultra-refined nine 9s copper, silver, gold, Palladium or other materials, customers feel better to part with their money. It's the glitter mentality. However, nothing trumps cable geometry where seniority of importance is concerned. The primary characteristics of any electrical cable (resistance/R, capacitance/C and inductance/L plus the losses and operative bandwidth fixed by the connector) are determined by the magnetic and electrical relations and current capacity. Everything else is much farther down the totem pole. The use of copper, silver or gold influences these measures very little if at all. That's not to say the use of specific materials does not influence the sound. But those are secondary and tertiary phenomena well past the electrodynamic design."

My take, worry how it sounds in your setup as that is the overall goal here. Find something you like in the budget you have. Some here would say I have spent too much on my cables, but they are the ones I like after auditioning MANY MANY MANY different companies from cheap to uber-expensive. But again it is in my room, my setup, and to my liking, and it really does not matter what anyone else thinks. Cable purchasing is really this simple.

DTB300 said:

I use the Signal Cable Power Cords and think they are a great value.

My take, worry how it sounds in your setup as that is the overall goal here. Find something you like in the budget you have. Some here would say I have spent too much on my cables, but they are the ones I like after auditioning MANY MANY MANY different companies from cheap to uber-expensive. But again it is in my room, my setup, and to my liking, and it really does not matter what anyone else thinks. Cable purchasing is really this simple.

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I suppose I should look into the cable company that lets you try out different cables. It may sound easy, but actually getting sample cables takes a lot of time and effort, something I don't have a lot of due to my job. Then there's the guilty obligation to buy something when a company takes the time to lend you their stuff. At least for me. However, half the fun is in the search for that which takes you personally to audio nirvanna!

Joe

music again said:

Would you recommend the "Magic Power Cord", 20 amp version, or 15 amp version? I do have two dedicated outlets using the PS Audio Power Port outlets, which I believe are rated at 20 amps.


I noticed that SignalCable's IC's and speaker cable are silver based.

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Regarding your power cords, it dosent matter what your outlets are rated at, it's what the breaker at your box and corrsponding guage of wire from it to your outlet that count, relative their rating. Regardless, 15 amp for the Summitt's is plenty, they only draw 350 watts (max) each.

As far as Signal Cables cabling they actually offer both copper and silver.

I use the Copper 'ultra' speaker cable and see no reason to spend more.

I'm in agreement with Erik (and alot of others) that while there are differences sonically between certian cables one DOES NOT need to spend serious four and in some cases five figures for the desired "sonic signature" they so desire.

For those that do and would dare subject themselves to bias controled listening tests, they would probably be surprised !!

twich54 said:

Regarding your power cords, it dosent matter what your outlets are rated at, it's what the breaker at your box and corrsponding guage of wire from it to your outlet that count, relative their rating. Regardless, 15 amp for the Summitt's is plenty, they only draw 350 watts (max) each.

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Dave,

I did have an electician put in 20 amp breakers and I think 12 guage wire, plus the PS Audio ports, so I should be OK for 20 amp.

I noticed you are train enthusiast. Me too!
I'm intersted in the C&O railroad, mainly in the WV New River area; specifically 1955, Thurmond WV. I visited the restored depot last year. What a great place. Literally on a shelf with the New River on one side and mountains on the other.

Joe

My $0.02 on this:

If you've not spent at least 2x what you plan to spend on cables on treating your room acoustics, then any possible benefit will be totally obscured by the room effects.

Actually, spending mega-dollars on sources, amps etc. is rather pointless if those increases in quality will be hidden by the room acoustics.

I have nothing against cables; it's just that I believe they are absolutely the last thing one should change if looking for improvements in a system.

We all spend a lot of time obsesing about our systems (I do ) and we need to realize that the most significant component is the room we place the equipment in.

music again said:

I did have an electician put in 20 amp breakers and I think 12 guage wire, plus the PS Audio ports, so I should be OK for 20 amp.

I noticed you are train enthusiast. Me too!
I'm intersted in the C&O railroad, mainly in the WV New River area; specifically 1955, Thurmond WV. I visited the restored depot last year. What a great place. Literally on a shelf with the New River on one side and mountains on the other. Joe

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Joe , if he was a qualified electrician than yes the Min he would have put in with a 20 amp breaker would have been 12 gauge.

FWIW, JonFo makes a very valid point as well !

Glad to hear we have another "foamer" on the board ! I'll be traveling on #50 the second week of May through the New River Gorge on my way from Chgo to Wilmington, De. I suspect when Senator Byrd dies that train may go to grave with him, I hope I'm wrong !

I'm a little late to this thread, but . . .

music again said:

With all of the cables out there, and the obvious quality of your entire system, why did you end up chosing the "within reach of the average audiophile budget", SignalCable stuff?

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First of all, I do believe cables make a difference in the sound of a system. Sometimes subtle, sometimes not so subtle. However, I don't believe that it is that difficult or expensive to produce a quality cable. I believe that the marketing hype and profit margins in the cable industry are absolutely ridiculous and I have no desire to feed money into that cash cow. I could afford to buy any cables on the market if I desired. But I simply don't buy into the hype that they are worth the money being charged and I don't wish to throw away money just for the sake of it.

I have listened to various brands, including: Audioquest, Cardas, Kimber, Transparent, Mapleshade, and Monster. I have found very little that I thought was worth the money charged for it. I have read way more hype than real world specifications and scientific reasoning.

I tried Signal Cable's products based on recommendations from others and based on their reasonable prices. I was also impressed that they put their electrical specs out on their website for everyone to see.

I have been very happy with the sound from every Signal Cable product I have tried. I settled on the Silver Resolution speaker cables and balanced IC cables because they exhibit clarity, detail and neutrality that seems to complement my Sander's Sound monoblocs and my Summits. This is my opinion based on my system and may or may not hold true for anyone else. Signal Cable also offers IC's and speaker cables in copper wire for those who don't want the silver.

As for Power cords, I use the 15 amp version of the Magic Power Cord for my Summits and my Sanders Sound monoblocs, although I do have 20 amp electrical lines and the PS Audio Power Port receptacles as well. The Summits and Sanders Sound monoblocs both take the 15 amp connector. That is what I would recommend.

Please understand that I am not saying there are not lots of other great cables out there. I just don't think they are hundreds of dollars a foot great. I honestly don't think there are any that would noticeably improve on the sound I am getting right now, and that is really all that matters to me.

music again said:

I suppose I should look into the cable company that lets you try out different cables. It may sound easy, but actually getting sample cables takes a lot of time and effort, something I don't have a lot of due to my job.

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Do it when you know you will have the time - there is no real time frame on auditioning stuff. That is unless you have the sudden "instant gratification" itch.

Then there's the guilty obligation to buy something when a company takes the time to lend you their stuff.

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You can try cables from companies directly who offer 30 or 60 day trials. You usually only have to pay for shipping in those instances. Signal Cable, Blue Jeans, Zu Audio, and many others that slip my brain at the moment.

At least for me. However, half the fun is in the search for that which takes you personally to audio nirvanna!

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I totally agree. Auditioning is great fun and a great learning experience. I have listened to many different manufactures cables in my setup: DH Labs, DIY Belden, Signal Cable, Heartland, Monster, Nordost, Rad Shack, Audioquest, MIT, JPS Labs, Tara Labs, Kimber, and Zu Cable to name a few

You will NEVER get an agreement from the majority on the topic of cables. If Rad Shack cables do it for you great, if the five-figure Stealth Indra IC cables are you choice, great. Personally I am able to demonstrate IC cable differences (in my setup), and have had people over who have agreed with hearing the change. The "REAL" issue is how much of a change was there for how much money, and is the difference worth it to you.

There are folks who think spending "X" amount on cables is ridiculous, but go out and spend 6 figures on a car - which I think is ridiculous. Who is right - everyone. Welcome to the Insane Asylum of Cables.

DTB300 said:

There are folks who think spending "X" amount on cables is ridiculous, but go out and spend 6 figures on a car - which I think is ridiculous. Who is right - everyone. Welcome to the Insane Asylum of Cables.

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Bulls-eye!

Cables will drive you nuts!!!

DTB300 said:

There are folks who think spending "X" amount on cables is ridiculous, but go out and spend 6 figures on a car - which I think is ridiculous. Who is right - everyone. Welcome to the Insane Asylum of Cables.

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Reminds me of the time about 20 years ago when a friend of mine at work announced to the group at coffee break that I had just spent $900 on a tonearm (a Syrinx). One of the ladies thought it was ridiculous. My response was, "Some people go to China; I buy tonearms" - she had just returned from a vacation in China !

I agree with JonFo wholeheartedly.

Yes, I have some fairly expensive cable in my system right now, but as a reviewer I get some pretty good deals on the stuff. It has made a difference and I enjoy getting that last bit of performance my system is capable of, but I got WAY MORE bang for the buck with the GIK panels and bass traps I've put in the room.

I've probably spent about 2500 at retail on GIK treatments and it has really made a huge difference in every aspect of sound.

The cables to me add a few percent here and there. I think there is a lot of great stuff out there in the 100-500 per cable range and we have tested quite a bit of it.

Stuff in between the speakers

tonepub said:

I agree with JonFo wholeheartedly.

I've probably spent about 2500 at retail on GIK treatments and it has really made a huge difference in every aspect of sound.

The cables to me add a few percent here and there. I think there is a lot of great stuff out there in the 100-500 per cable range and we have tested quite a bit of it.

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Jeff,

Related to this subject, I seem to recall you saying the best thing you did for your system was to get rid of all the equipment in between your speakers.

I am looking at going from a 20" tall Slalmander Synergy twin (44.5" wide) to the triple (65.75" wide). The unit is 11" from the back of the wall and the front ends up at 31" out into the room. It's about 22.5" high with the wheels. I have the Summits panels out about 36" from the wall. With the triple unit, the speakers would be 7 feet apart (inside woofer cases to inside woofer case, toed in). 84" apart - 65.75" for the triple = 18.25"/2 means the Summits would be about 9" from the sides of the triple unit. I will be mounting a 46" flat panel TV about 14" above the top of the Salamander unit.

Questions:

Since the TV would be a good 33" from the panels, would this really effect the sound and imaging?

The very bottom of the Summit panel would be nearly even with the top of the Salamander triple. Since the panel is out about 36" from the wall, and the panel just about clears the top of the Salamander unit, do you think this arrangement would function OK, or am I detroying the sound stage and imaging? Typically I hade the speakers on 60" apart. I cannot move the electronics to the side. They have to stay in the middle with the TV mounted on the wall.

Anyone's feedback is welcome.

Joe

PS: Room acoustics will be another topic soon. My room is 15' x 19" with an 11' ceiling. The speakers are on the long wall. Actauly there is a 13' foyer attached to the 19' side, making the entire length of the room 32'. The left speaker will be about 2 feet from the foyer. My head sits about 3' from the back wall. There's a couple of huge book cases on the back wall and a large glass table in front of the couch Just an overview for now.

I have the quadruple salamander rack in between my Summits. I still get great imaging and soundstaging. I think the rack is short enough that it really doesn't hamper imaging too much. But I also have three HF mini traps mounted on my front wall (one each mounted vertically behind each Summit, and one mounted horizontally behind the Stage center, which sits on top of the Salamander). I personally highly recommend this setup. The HF mini traps really cut down the secondary reflections, allowing you to hear all the details and imaging that your speakers are producing.

Rich said:

I have the quadruple salamander rack in between my Summits. I still get great imaging and soundstaging. I think the rack is short enough that it really doesn't hamper imaging too much. But I also have three HF mini traps mounted on my front wall (one each mounted vertically behind each Summit, and one mounted horizontally behind the Stage center, which sits on top of the Salamander). I personally highly recommend this setup. The HF mini traps really cut down the secondary reflections, allowing you to hear all the details and imaging that your speakers are producing.

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Rich,

So if I do not have a center channel, and I have the 46" TV in between the speakers mounted on the wall (a good three feet from the panels), would you recommend still using two 2x4 mini traps, one behind each Summit in a vertical fashion? I'd have to convince my wife they are works of art.

Since my room is so wide with the 11" ceilings, I think the sound probably isn't as "concentrated" as it could be. Perhaps the mini traps would help focus/imaging, especially on vocals, minimizing any negative reflections off the TV.

Joe

music again said:

would you recommend still using two 2x4 mini traps, one behind each Summit in a vertical fashion?

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I would certainly recommend that you consider it. No one can tell you for sure what room treatments will sound like in your room and whether or not you will prefer absorption behind the panels vs. diffusion or flat reflection. Only you can decide that for yourself by testing it and seeing what kind of a difference it makes to you.

But I found, as you can see from some of my prior posts on the topic, that it made an incredible difference in overall realism, detail retrieval, imaging, and soundstaging. If I had to sell off my room treatments for extra money, one at a time, the ones behind my Summits would be the last two to go. I think they are that important.

There are a lot of good comments regarding cables on this thread. It's a debate that has no end. "Cables will drive you nuts" - A true statement but only if you let it drive you nuts.

Any difference in cables is usually subtle and some sound the same, good, bad or neutral. But upgrading cables should be one of the last upgrades you do in your system since the impact they have is usually minimal. Room acoustics should be one the first upgrades since it has a very large influence on how anything sounds in your room. Once your system and room acoustics are well refined, you'll then hear more of difference in cables or just about any other change in your system. Hence, the reference system.

Cables are unique in that they are a relatively simple component with a very difficult job to do. They must transmit a very delicate and sensitive music signal from one component to another without altering any aspect of that delicate and highly refined signal that your expertly engineered and exotic series of components worked so hard to reproduce. It's very easy to screw that signal up with a cable especially when it comes to imaging, soundstaging, depth, detail, bass, sibilance, tone, midrange and all those other audio holographic effects we are so critical and particular about. Well maybe some of us are a little obsessive like me.

Designing a good music transmitting cable involves electrical science and I'll disclaim at this point that I am not an electrical engineer of any sort. However, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out that cable design, construction and material can impact a music cables performance in many ways. Impedance, conductance, resistance, skin effect, vibration, gauge and length are just some of the properties that have an effect on the music signal which again is a very complex and delicate signal. The wire has to perform optimally while being designed and built with some durability in mind.

Wires that power an electric motor is extremely simple by comparison yet you can actual power both an electric motor and a speaker with a coat hangar wire and the motor will turn and the speaker will produce sound. I doubt that either one will perform at it's best or at it's highest efficiency with a coat hangar than it would with a wire designed specifically for their particular purpose. Also durability, reliability and safety would be compromised.

Just about everything has its extremes in price and audio cables are no exception to the point of being rediculous . Everyone has to decide their own price point. And as stated before, price does not always reflect quality or performance especially with cables. I would suggest that upgrading cables as the last thing to do and consider it fine tuning or subtle tweaking. Ironically, subtle changes seem to have more impact when everything else is working well together.

Power cables are in a different class since they don't carry a music signal and even though you could, I wouldn't power my amps with a coat hangar. I'm just picky that way.

One thing is for sure - "cables can drive you nuts". But they are a necessary evil.

I use L A T International for my front Puritys (IC-300) and my center channel Stage (SS-1000 MK II). My surrounds are Script i which I use a pair of Liberty Extra Flex (16 AWG) for them. Since I use Script i for surround sound only (explosions, rain drops, ...), I do not know whether Liberty Cables are good enough for rear Script i or should I upgrade them to something else (They run 35' long in-wall). I do not Know how to test the sound quality for the rear speakers.
Do I need to upgrade them to 14 AWG or is 16 AWG good enough for surround sound?

Thank You