Sunfire Symphonic Reference vs Carver m-4.0t

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Nik

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Ok so my frustration with the difficulty in finding more Sunfire Symphonic Reference amps I have been looking at similar amps and like the power and reviews of the Carver m-4.0t (or Carver TFM-42 same amp ratings not as good looking) are similar to the Sunfire.

Sunfire: 250wpc @ 8ohm, 500wpc @ 4ohm
Carver: 375wpc @ 8ohm, 500wpc @ 4ohm

I would like to know what you all think about the two and which would be best for the MLs (I have Aerius I and Sequel II for fronts, Logos center, and Jamo rears).
My other thing is that for the price of two Sunfire SR amps, I can get all four of the Carver amps (I would like to run four amps :rocker:) Why?
1- R channel panel/ woofer
2- rear speakers
3- center bridged
4- L channel panel/ woofer
And in the past month I have seen 5 or so Carvers vs 0 Sunfire SR. Thanks all!
Nik
 
Nuts ok thanks C.A.P I guess I will wait to find my others- unless anyone wants to get rid of theirs!
 
I would stay with the Sunfire. The Carver "M" line has to be going on 15 to 20 years old now.

Keep looking on Audiogon and E-bay. The Sunfire Refernece do come up from time to time. Also look at www.carveraudio.com.
 
Is there a for sale section that is open to the public or is it hidden to the public or not one at all for the Carver forums?
Nik
 
Is there a for sale section that is open to the public or is it hidden to the public or not one at all for the Carver forums?
Nik
There is a for sale section for members only that is not available for the public eye. There is also only one Carver forum. Between the Sunfire and Carver gear that you are looking at, the sonic signatures are different as are the load capabilities.

Spec's are not the be all to end all. What speakers are you trying to power? What type of music do you prefer? What size room do you have and what other associated gear do you have?

This may help us to help you make an educated decision.
 
I would agree with most of what Treitz3 has to say on this matter. The sonic signatures of the Carver M-4.0t and the Sunfire Symphonic Reference amps are VERY different.

In fact, the sonic signature of the Sumfire Symphonic Ref is also VERY different from the "regular" Sunfire stereo amps, and many would say that it is slightly inferior, ESPECIALLY when driving a difficult load like MLs.

You say you have Aerius I and Sequel II speakers. I am a long-time Carver owner as well as owning a set of ML Sequels (the original ones), and I can tell you that the M-4.0t will sound VERY sweet with your Sequels, and probably just as good with your Aerius. It will, however, be a little soft in the bass department. If you listen to a lot of acoustic music, or jazz, the M-4.0t might be just fine, but if you like lots of bass-heavy rock-n-roll, or BIG orchestral music, you might find it a little lacking in the "umph" department...

As Cherian says, the Carver amps have been out of production for about 15 years. However, they are perhaps the ONLY amps from their era that are still in VERY common use, and tend to hold up pretty well. And there is an active and knowledgeable user base, and at least two or three VERY reputable repair shops that can get your Carver gear fixed up to better-than-new if you have problems with it, for just a few hundred dollars per unit. In the "high end" world, the only other brand of amps that has similar long-term reliability, and is as well-supported by users and qualified technicians is perhaps McIntosh or Bryston. Just try getting your 1980's era Krells or Levinsons re-capped--you could buy brand new amps for less, I'd wager...

One caveat about Carver stereo amps and ML speakers though--you pretty much can forget the idea of getting TWO M-4.0t's and running them bridged mono. Carver amps will DEFINITELY crank when bridged mono into an 8-ohm speaker, but your Sequel II's are going to suck the juice right out of mono-bridged Carver stereo amps LONG before you reach "loud" levels. I've tried several Carvers this way with my Sequels (M-500t's, M-200t's, M-400t's, TFM-35's) and the wheels just fall off at medium-high volume levels--the bass gets all floppy (due to the damping factor of the amp being halved by bridging) and the mids get very grainy (due, I believe, to the amps rails being a little strained by the low resistance load of the speakers).

The Sunfire Symphonic Ref is sort of Sunfire's "budget" line. It's not really meant to drive difficult loads with the ease and grace that the 300x2 or 600x2 Signature amps can, and probably doesn't sound as smooth and authoritative as the new TGA two-channel models either. It will probably give you tighter bass than the M-4.0t though, but at a little sacrifice in sweetness on top and liquidity in the mids. Also, be aware that Sunfire's Symphonic Reference amps are the ONLY stereo amps that Sunfire made that simply CANNOT be bridged mono. The design does not allow for this at all.

The Sunfire 300x2 or 600x2, however, CAN be run bridged mono, and will do so into ML speakers with a LOT less trouble (and a LOT more authority and finesse) than Carver amps bridged mono. Gotta love that ultra-high-current topology and the astounding wizardry of Sunfire's power supply... ;)

If you're going to get a used Sunfire, I'd suggest tracking down a 300x2 or 600x2. You'll be much happier, I think. The Sequel line is notoriously power-hungry, and will only sound better if you're feeding it with an outrageously high-current amp. I run a pair of Carver Silver 7t monoblocks on my Sequels, and they sound delightful. And all the headroom that the S7t's provide really does wonders for the bass deficiencies of the Sequels. They sound a LOT more authoratative with the Silver 7t's than any other amp I've had them hooked up to in the same price range (small Krells, Brystons, Adcoms, Rotels, smaller Carvers, etc)

One of the reasons that Plinius, Krell, Levinson, and ARC amps sound so good with ML's is because of their high-current outputs. It's not all about watts, bro--with ML's it's more about the CURRENT your amp can push, and the amount of headroom it has when driving a low-ohm load.

Oh, and you need to look into some REALLY fast speaker cables too. Properly matched cables can mean the difference between "OK" and "WOW" when it comes to Carver/Sunfire and ML speaker combos. I would HIGHLY recommend that you look into some used Nordosts--Solar Winds are pretty reasonably-priced on the used market, and you can often get the more upscale Red Dawns for less than 50% retail if you buy used. It has been my experience that Nordost speaker cables REALLY bring the speed of the MLs out when driven by Carver products.

But of course, YMMV...

--Richard
 
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If you're going to get a used Sunfire, I'd suggest tracking down a 300x2 or 600x2. You'll be much happier, I think. The Sequel line is notoriously power-hungry, and will only sound better if you're feeding it with an outrageously high-current amp....

But of course, YMMV...

--Richard

+1 on the recommendation for a 300x2 Sunfire.

When I first purchased my Sequel II's back in '92, I was driving them with an Adcom 555 II (200wpc) and it was OK, but not great.
Then I got a Sunfire 300x2 Stereo amp. and OMG :eek: it was like totally different speakers with the Sunfires!

The Sunfire has no problem driving the low impedance of the Sequels (or any other ML). And I never ran out of power either, even at high volumes.

As for durability, I got the amp in ’93 and just had that amp rebuilt at the factory for $350 (because a cap was going bad). So >14 years pushing low impedance ML’s is not a bad run, and I expect it to go at least another decade or more without faults.
TCO on these amps is ludicrously low compared to many other ‘high-end’ brands.

Dunno about fast cables. I like mine to sit still and stay connected to the gear, not zoom around. :devil:
 
+1 on the recommendation for a 300x2 Sunfire.

When I first purchased my Sequel II's back in '92, I was driving them with an Adcom 555 II (200wpc) and it was OK, but not great.
Then I got a Sunfire 300x2 Stereo amp. and OMG :eek: it was like totally different speakers with the Sunfires!

The Sunfire has no problem driving the low impedance of the Sequels (or any other ML). And I never ran out of power either, even at high volumes.

As for durability, I got the amp in ’93 and just had that amp rebuilt at the factory for $350 (because a cap was going bad). So >14 years pushing low impedance ML’s is not a bad run, and I expect it to go at least another decade or more without faults.
TCO on these amps is ludicrously low compared to many other ‘high-end’ brands.

Dunno about fast cables. I like mine to sit still and stay connected to the gear, not zoom around. :devil:

hahahahah!

:)
 
I am also a big Carver fan...I have had a Phase Linear 400, M1.5t, PM1.5, and a Sunfire Sign. Architects II. I had SL3's which sounded best with the PM1.5! ... though the fan was annoying for some reason this pairing just worked. The Sunfire Sign. was wonderful with my CLSz2 but ultimately replaced by a Bryston 14BSST as a prefer it's more neutral presentation. Carver has tried to emulate tube like sound with SS bass in his more modern creations with excellent results...in a similar vein ie: sonically similar to some of the big MAC monoblocks I have auditioned.:music:
 
Thank you guys for all the great words- I would love to own some 300x2 or 600x2 but the budget makes it hard to justify the costs for as many as I would like to run. I think I am going to A/B the Emotiva 2 channel about to come out. If the Sunfire wins- I think I could easily trade one for a Sunfire. For cables- I will get to those later but for now I am running Audioquest Type 6 biwires. I am looking at Anti-cables and Signal too.
Nik
 

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