Fellas... you guys think we're in a recession?
- Thread starter Joey_V
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Also don't forget that Joey started this thread in the "Way off topic" section (and if this doesn't qualify, I don't know what does! 
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I'm not sure what this board is coming to, but I just saw an advertisement to receive an e-mail from a well known racist, fascist and suspected transvestite (Ann Coulter).
I guess all money is green.
ROFLMAO:bowdown:
Kenscollick
Well-known member
kwr
Well-known member
I have just been for a look around regarding Ann Coulter. Wow - she makes the Australian conservative commentators look left of centre.
There is a lot of interest regarding the American political process and the American economy (you betcha a recession is coming Joey) because of the worldwide implications. American foreign policy has resembled a two year old in a sandpit with the biggest spade for far too long. The financial services house of cards is tumbling down in the face of irresponsible lending practices in the land of the free to screw your fellow citizen in the name of enterprise.
That recession is coming Joey. As long as you see your patients as human beings rather than a billing event the current conservative agenda will disappoint.
Kevin
There is a lot of interest regarding the American political process and the American economy (you betcha a recession is coming Joey) because of the worldwide implications. American foreign policy has resembled a two year old in a sandpit with the biggest spade for far too long. The financial services house of cards is tumbling down in the face of irresponsible lending practices in the land of the free to screw your fellow citizen in the name of enterprise.
That recession is coming Joey. As long as you see your patients as human beings rather than a billing event the current conservative agenda will disappoint.
Kevin
HsvToolFool
Well-known member
As government increasingly inserts itself into our daily lives, there are few topics which will not spark a political debate.
HsvToolFool
Well-known member
I agree strongly. But the public perception is to the contrary. Bush's silly stimulus "rebate" is a perfect example how politicians want us to believe they operate a big machine called "The Economy". By flicking the correct switches and turning knobs in a magic way, "The Economy" behaves as we expect. Bleah.
HsvToolFool
Well-known member
No one here deserves to be written off as a close-minded partisan or, for that matter, as an ignorant rube. Phrases like “If you are informed then you would know…” are insulting and can be avoided. It would have taken you less time to type a link to your sources. I can safely say that policy-changes regarding yearly GPD statistics are hardly common knowledge. If it happened, I want to know who, what, when, and why. That is the thread’s purpose.
It appears that you believe the BEA recently redefined their methods to make GPD figures artificially high, so that comparisons to past years are meaningless. Since you didn't explain, I pointed out that believing such allegations without proof means that all GPD figures ever compiled are worthless.
Then again, you may have been making a statement about disaster relief statistics. In text-based forums, it's often difficult to determine which post someone is answering much less a specific topic within a post.
Having participated in online debates many times, I know exactly what you mean. But you're giving up on everyone just a smidge too soon. At least one link or note to what you’re referring would be helpful. We're not mind readers.
HsvToolFool
Well-known member
Just in case you're not aware of the overall context, Ann Coulter is a humorist and political commentator, not a journalist or political advisor. Almost everything she says is intended to infuriate American leftists and thereby draw attention to herself on talk shows. She's a Libertarian Lenny Bruce and extremely good at stirring up controversy to sell her books.
Coulter's political opposite is former Clinton advisor James Carville, the "Mouth From the South". Although it would make an entertaining debate, you will never see Ann and James in the same room because it would create a matter/anti-matter explosion which would turn our section of the galaxy into a quasar.
HsvToolFool
Well-known member
From the tone and content of your posts, I think it best that you and I never debate any political subject ever. However, I will respond once and see how it goes.
I'm sure we all agree that widely-held beliefs are often baseless. Large portions of the most advanced societies are incapable of logical thought. I would cite examples like SETI, faked moon landing conspiracies, Kennedy assassination conspiracies, the "Bush lied" mantra, 9-11 "Truthers", and man-made global warming theories. I'm sure you could site different examples.
We all have pet-peeve issues we feel are neglected or over-emphasized due to media bias. For example, the abuse at Abu Grahib you mentioned was a NYTimes front-page story for 44 consecutive days although no one was killed, injured, and the night-watch guards involved were appropriately investigated and prosecuted.
But that's not the sort of thing which leads people outside the right-wing to perceive a leftist media bias. Beyond public opinion, empirical evidence demonstrates that a leftist attitude permeates the upper echelons of professional journalism, especially at the national level. Multiple polls of national journalists all show the same result: a disproportionate percentage of journalists consider themselves to be politically left-of-center. Compare how journalists poll and vote on issues to the general populace, and a significant left-wing bias is undeniable.
Once people began noticing this bias over 25 years ago, they began gathering and sharing anecdotal evidence. Several independent, watchdog right-wing organizations arose in response to perceived mainstream media bias.
As an example of the evidence fueling the perception of leftist bias, here's the ever-growing "Dishonest 101" list. This is a list of infamous journalism scandals rather than a list of political bias. These are the bigger scandals which made national headlines.
Researching each scandal reveals that most of them had unknown motives or were just laziness and self-interest at work. But there's no escaping that less than ten scandals demonstrate a right-wing bias, while over 40 showed varying degrees of left-wing bias...
- No bias / unknown: 1-3,5,11,14,18,21-23,25-26,30-31,35-37,39-40,42,44-45,47-51,54,56,58,60,65,71-75,79-80,82-86,88-90,93-94,99-100
- Shows right-wing bias: 10,38,64,87,98
- Shows left-wing bias: 4,7-9,12-13,15-17,19-20,25,27-29,32-34,41,43,46,52-53,55,57,59,61-63,66-70,76-78,81,91-92,95-97,101
In the above exercise, I posted the link to the original article and enumerated each instance so that you can judge each scandal for yourself. My criterion for bias was simple: the fraud must be either committed to further a political agenda or the fraud was overlooked due to the agenda of the news service.
Undoubtedly, this exercise will break down into an argument over why incident "X" does or doesn't show political bias. I will reconsider any judgments you disagree with, but I doubt enough mistakes can be found to reverse such a clear outcome. Of the scandals I didn't recall offhand or never heard before, I carefully researched them. If I couldn't judge with confidence I placed the item in the "No bias / unknown" category.
This list of infamous journalism scandals obviously does not represent the ethics or agendas of mainstream journalism. Instead, it demonstrates what type of fraud is most often committed and what fraud is most likely ignored by editors in their reviewing process.
Either there are very few conservative journalists, or the conservative journalists seldom commit fraud, or there are many more liberal journalists, or liberal journalists commit fraud more frequently. Obviously, many people now suspect there are many more liberal journalists.
She's (it - see Adam's apple and monster hands) has made some comments about the relatives of the victims of 9/11/2001 and the mothers of our fallen soldiers as being opportunistic and unpatriotic for speaking out about the crimes against humanity for which the current administration is responsible for. I fail to see any humor in her/it's attacks on Americans practicing free speech, a right protected by our first amendment.
HsvToolFool, you can't polish a turd and that's exactly what the bush/cheney gang has done when when it comes to accounting for the economy. below is an article from 2004, many changes since then, I've lost count of how many.
Bush To Alter Economic Stats Again
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=180748&highlight=economy
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Kenscollick
Well-known member
If we are heading toward a recession, It is our own doing. We the citizens of the country and any changes in the economy is a result of what we do. when you buy a foriegn car it results in one less produced by an American earning an American wage. when this happens a few times the American earning an American wage looses his well paying job. there are only so many jobs in the service industry. Joey has one of the best. Everytime we make a purchase of a foreign made product it has a direct result on our economy.
The guy in the white house can only do so much to improve the economy, If he were a democrat he would simply raise taxes and tarrifs on imported goods making them cost more. leaving even less money in consumers hands.
This is not new think of all of the products that are no longer american made.
Also it is very easy to attack the rich but when was the last time you got a job from a poor person?
Goverment restrictions are also driving jobs overseas. there has not been a new refinery built in the last 30 years, here in Michigan there is a refinery that has asked to enlarge it operation, the first people to respond was the sierra club saying that it would ruin the enviorment.
Liberals are the first to try an stifel the economy by demanding unreasonable demands on those that want to start a business. Michican and California are prime examples of how to drive jobs out of their states.and lastly I have to defend Ann as a regular reader of her books and colums. What she says is based on the truth something liberals just arent comfortable with. most conservative writers can back up what they say with facts, something else liberals arent comfortable with. In her books every claim has its source listed.
Liberals on the other hand when they quickly run out of facts they resort to name calling racist, facist, etc. even though most have no idea what a facist is nor can they produce any evidance of.
Buy American, Hug your Kids, Thank a Veteran, and Thank God that we live in the Greatest Country on Earth.
The guy in the white house can only do so much to improve the economy, If he were a democrat he would simply raise taxes and tarrifs on imported goods making them cost more. leaving even less money in consumers hands.
This is not new think of all of the products that are no longer american made.
Also it is very easy to attack the rich but when was the last time you got a job from a poor person?
Goverment restrictions are also driving jobs overseas. there has not been a new refinery built in the last 30 years, here in Michigan there is a refinery that has asked to enlarge it operation, the first people to respond was the sierra club saying that it would ruin the enviorment.
Liberals are the first to try an stifel the economy by demanding unreasonable demands on those that want to start a business. Michican and California are prime examples of how to drive jobs out of their states.and lastly I have to defend Ann as a regular reader of her books and colums. What she says is based on the truth something liberals just arent comfortable with. most conservative writers can back up what they say with facts, something else liberals arent comfortable with. In her books every claim has its source listed.
Liberals on the other hand when they quickly run out of facts they resort to name calling racist, facist, etc. even though most have no idea what a facist is nor can they produce any evidance of.
Buy American, Hug your Kids, Thank a Veteran, and Thank God that we live in the Greatest Country on Earth.
asindc
Well-known member
Ok, I'll weigh in here, since I find these to be interesting comments from someone who lives in Michigan. I grew up there, as well as in Indiana, so I saw first hand what the decline of the American manufacturing industries did to entire communities.
You are right. It is easy to blame the rich. I remember vividly when American car companies began moving operations to foreign countries (where is the love for country?) at a time when some of them, GM and Ford in particular, were making record profits. The rationale was the need to compete globally with foreign car makers. It is interesting therefore that many foreign car makers have setup operations here in this country, including Toyota, BMW, Nissan, and Mitsubishi. In fact, Toyota and BMW have expanded operations in the U.S. since first setting up here. So much for not being able to compete globally by building cars here.
And by the way: Facts are facts, which are not to be confused with ad hominem attacks, such as calling a decorated war veteran who left three limbs in Vietnam a coward and unpatriotic. I fail to see how this informs anyone's opinion on public policy.
To answer the original question: Yes.
TheBobGoat
Well-known member
Ken,
My Toyota Camry was made in Kentucky by American workers! Just wanted to throw that out there. The unemployed could always join the Army. They are hurting for soldiers.
My Toyota Camry was made in Kentucky by American workers! Just wanted to throw that out there. The unemployed could always join the Army. They are hurting for soldiers.
This is a very old argument that just doesn't have any truth to it, especially in today's global economy. What exactly is a "foreign" car. Ford owns Jaguar. Daimler and Chrysler have merged. Here in Alabama, we have plants producing Hondas, BMWs, Mercedes, and Hyundais, among others. The downfall of the American automakers has been their lack of innovation over the last 40 years and the unreasonable demands of the labor unions, in my humble opinion. In some cities in America, a majority of the job opportunities are with manufacturing facilities of multinational companies, like NEC, Fujitsu, BASF, Hitachi, Sony, etc. etc.
Reciting the tired old argument: "Buy American or you are ruining our economy" is just ridiculous these days. If all we did was buy American and all the foreign companies left this Country because they weren't selling any products, we would probably lose more than half our jobs and our economy would collapse.
While this may be true, unfortunately it is brought on by the lack of ethics in American business itself. Over the years, American business has proven itself incapable of making ethically correct decisions regarding health, safety and environmental responsibility. Thus we are left with the effects of asbestos and lead exposure issues and cleanup needs, thousands of toxic waste cleanup sites, water, groundwater and air pollution issues, over-harvesting of natural resources, etc. etc.
The problem is that business is so focused on short-term profits and stock prices, that their decisions tend to focus on the short-term gain above all else, including the long-term public good. At some point, government has to step in and say: "No, you can't destroy the environment in order to make your widgets cheaper and faster." Unfortunately, this short-term mindset is just a byproduct of the Capitalist system we have developed and of human nature in general, so there is really no easy solution to it. China is beginning to face the same issues as their economy grows and their businesses pollute the local environments.
All I have to say about Ann Coulter is that I wish we would put her and James Carville on a spaceship and send them to Mars to live together. It is their brand of fiery, partisan, idiotic bickering that is one of the biggest obstacles to solving any of the problems facing our nation. I would say that 20% of Americans or less are devoted fans of each of them, and the other 60% of us just want them to shut up and go away so that we can actually work together to find common ground and fix the things that can be fixed.
By the way, this is also wrong. A recession is a natural economic cycle, just like economic expansion. They will always occur. You cannot manage the economy to have slow regular growth without ever having a surge or a pullback. That is just how these things work. They run in cycles, regardless of what we do.
Now I see I can also sign up for Newt Gingrich's newsletter.
WTF?
I think the less government does, the better it can stay out of the way of business and the better we will all be off. However, not addressing trade policies with China and running up a national debt the likes of which the world has never seen is plain stupid. Doing government so poorly that we would be better off without one is as bad as it gets.
http://www.overspun.com/?m=200503
http://www.ramdac.org/2003/ann-coulter-a-man.html
It's a man, it's a man.
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2007/04/ann-coulter-penis-photos-analysis.html
EDIT:
Kruppy, a couple of books I've read which point out the inaccuracies of puindits like Ann Coulter.
Eric Alterman's "What Liberal Media"
http://www.whatliberalmedia.com/
Al Franken's "Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right "
http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Lying-Liars-Tell-Them/dp/0525947647
WTF?
I think the less government does, the better it can stay out of the way of business and the better we will all be off. However, not addressing trade policies with China and running up a national debt the likes of which the world has never seen is plain stupid. Doing government so poorly that we would be better off without one is as bad as it gets.
http://www.overspun.com/?m=200503
http://www.ramdac.org/2003/ann-coulter-a-man.html
It's a man, it's a man.
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2007/04/ann-coulter-penis-photos-analysis.html
EDIT:
Kruppy, a couple of books I've read which point out the inaccuracies of puindits like Ann Coulter.
Eric Alterman's "What Liberal Media"
http://www.whatliberalmedia.com/
Al Franken's "Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them): A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right "
http://www.amazon.com/Lies-Lying-Liars-Tell-Them/dp/0525947647
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HsvToolFool
Well-known member
I understand. You were not responding to the GPD figures I presented from the BEA site or the thread’s main topic of the present economic slump.
Although poverty and health care coverage stats are not used directly in defining recessionary periods, Bush obviously undermined his credibility in 2004 by redefining those statistical methods. After he won the 2004 election, I don’t think he really cared about his image anymore. He couldn't run for President again and wouldn't have gained support from the left no matter what he did. Regardless, I agree that it’s a poor precedent to allow.
Regarding your charge that he's done this many times in the past four years...show me some proof. Otherwise, it's just idle gossip.
I’d never heard of the National Bureau of Economic Research, but a little web research revealed that they are a well-respected academic clearing house for economic statistics. If Bush (or any administration) decides to compile or analyze statistics in a dubious manner for political gain, then Wall Street will just ignore the data and rely on credible sources like the NBER. Maybe that’s happened since 2004, and maybe not.
A quick visit to the NBER web site revealed that their measure of recession does not agree with the strict definition I’ve always heard and posted earlier. NBER is much looser and open to interpretation…
“The NBER does not define a recession in terms of two consecutive quarters of decline in real GDP. Rather, a recession is a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales.”
One big loophole I see there: what exactly is “significant”? If GPD goes from 2% to 1% in one quarter, that’s either a mere 1% decline or a massive 50% drop depending on your mood. I could not find a paper on the NBER web site commenting on whether we’re entering or experiencing a recession. Clearly, the NBER definition has a small enough time-window that you can easily claim the US is now in recession. On the other hand, their definitions also allows the recession to end a few months after it began. That is not really how I think of the word “recession”.
Adjectives like “independent” and “non-partisan” immediately set my political spidey-senses a-tingling. I don’t believe there is such a thing as unbiased when you’re discussing topics where those qualifiers somehow bolster credibility. There's a reason why you don’t hear people say, “Oh! Buy your minnows at that independent, non-partisan corner bait store.” All humans have bias, but many people (specifically journalists and academicians) are rarely able to acknowledge their bias and self-monitor accordingly. Interestingly enough, the left-wing attacked the NBER as having conservative bias back when data indicated the last recession was over in 2001. Apparently, the NBER was okay when their data made Bush look bad in 2004.
Sticks and stones............I don't have the time nor energy to convince you of anything. I know very well and your post proves that what ever I dredge up, you will just discount it. So who the F-ck made you my judge and jury? No one, it's a game which can only be played if I allow it, and I don't - so there.
If you are as well read and intellegent as you see yourself HsvToolFool, then all you have to do is open your eyes and ears. Warning; you may not like what you see and hear, but the truth is just that way sometimes.
Cheers!
Audiophiliac
Well-known member
In answer to the thread title, no.
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