Fellas... you guys think we're in a recession?

MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum

Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Joey_V

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
4,380
Reaction score
1
Location
Dallas, TX
Just a question to others out there... I know we represent a good part of the United States so I just wanted to shoot this question out there.

Do you think we're in a recession?

I ask because my little brother works for Sears Appliances and he told me that his sales are shockingly low compared to last year same time. I went to shop for the Rolex watch and I asked the salespeople straight up, how are sales.... they told me that no one is able to buy the middle priced stuff anymore - only stuff they sell are the budget stuff and the ridiculously expensive Pateks ($15K and up).

I went to sell my Cary SLP98P and it took 2.5 weeks to sell on the 'gon (thanks Ray!) - I had another 98L a year or so ago and it took 2 days to sell on the 'gon.

I'm beginning to tighten up my budget and I stopped looking at CDP/sources to buy because it's just not wise IMO...

Your experiences?
 
Where have you been ? We are in a full blown depression ! This is the worse MI has been in 50 yrs. It will take at least 10 rs to correct this if they make the right decisions !
 
I think we are nearing a recession. Everything is cyclical. After the dot com boom in the mid to late 90s, the bubble burst in 2000-2001 and then we had a solid 6 or 7 year run. So I suppose we are 'due' for a market or economic downturn. This is nothing new. Refer to Malkiel's book for a history of all of the manias from 1900 to the present day.

Naturally spending for some is going to be tight if they got involved in the sub prime mortgage mess. As their house payments go up, they have less disposable income. Of course, I am routing for the home prices to plummet since that's the only way I'll ever be able to afford something in the DC metro area. Money got too cheap and that drove housing prices way way up.

Fuel and energy costs are up and that hurts people who have long commutes or live in regions where it gets chilly and you need to spend a small fortune just to heat your home. I live in maryland and just last summer I get some mail from BGE stating that a 50% (that's not a typo) increase in energy cost was going to kick in for this winter. Right when I was moving out in mid december, the electric bill was $130 bucks for my modest apartment, and I was only living there for 2 weeks for that month. I can only imagine how much it costs to heat a 2 story house with 3-5 bedrooms...

However, it's all relative and it simply boils down to needs and wants. I think most people's financial plight is self inflicted. I think most everyone can attain and live a comfortable 'middle class' life, but they need to be sensible about it and learn to save at an early age. Sadly, we don't teach young people how money works. I was very lucky to know some successful and wealthy people when I was at college and they pointed me in the right direction. I am forever in their debt.

Erik
 
Well put Erik, I agree. Now C.A.P. I understand your situation in Mich, but we as a nation are NOT in a depression (yet !!) by any means.

Remember this, for in recesscionary times past our illustrious Gov't was and is the last to admitt it. As much as Alan Greenespan gets alot of praise he also needs to shoulder some of the blame, for he made money to cheap for to long. Bottom line is we have too many fiscally irresponsible indivduals in this country who don't have the discipline or common sense to manage money.

Another thing to keep in mind is, and you youngsters out there don't get to upset, as a whole those under the age of forty don't really know what "tough times" are. You didn't have to deal with a military draft, the economy has been above avg for most of your adult life so far, etc. etc.

Recessions provide reality checks for most of us. As a nation, in whole, we need to better ourselves in an ever expanding world economy.
 
I think that as a country we are entering an economic recession, which will also result in a bear market for a year or two. Notice these are two distinctly different, although related, issues. I think the recession is being brought on by a number of factors, including tightening credit due to the fallout from the mortgage fiasco and ridiculous credit practices over the last few years, but also due to rising inflation from runaway energy prices. And, don't forget that we are still engaged in a costly war. This means that our government is spending less at home for economic stimulus and also many military families are not spending as much as they will when the soldiers come home. I agree with Dave that Greenspan kept money cheap for too long, and we are paying the price for that now with inflation rising and a collapse in the credit markets.

These things are definitely cyclical. They cannot be avoided and can barely be "managed" by our government. As individuals, we can prepare ourselves through proper money management, savings, and diversification of assets. If we manage our money properly when times are good, then economic slowdowns will not affect us so much. Unfortunately, many people work in industries that cut back on employees with each recession and they have less ability to buffer themselves. These layoffs will ultimately just add to the consumer spending crunch and reinforce the recession.

If you do have spending money, though, tough economic times may result in some really good deals to be found on the 'gon. So keep your eye out for that.
 
Definately in a recession.

I feel better than most living up in the Seattle area where the housing market is finally begining to crack. It has taken a lot longer I guess partly due to the job market here and our continued population growth. Prices are finally falling as homes sit on the market.


Spending is definately down. I feel good about helping the economy though because I just spent 700$ on Cirque de Soleil tickets and a bit more on my next trip to Vegas.

Like Erik and twitch said, so much of it is self inflicted. Just because the credit card company gives you a 10K limit does not mean you can afford to spend that!! Lets just hope the bond insurers dont break down.

As far as the military families not spending, I would say that because of the war, they spend more. A lot of guys are overseas for 1+yrs and during that time they dont spend much. When they get back, they have 40K in their accounts and end up blowing it.

Would a fed rate cut even help? 75 basis points by the 29th? I am not sure it will help!!!
 
Worse than recession or depression we are starting an irreversible paradigm shift which will leave the USA a third world country (very rich and very poor).

Thanks GWB, it would not of been possible without you.
 
Good points all... though I don't agree with a US depression (crosses fingers). I am putting a stop to all large disposable income expenses and it's time that I beef up the bank account. This July, when I start earning, it's time for me to tighten the belt some more and live happily off of what I have so far acquired.

No new source, no new 19" rims for the Gee....

I guess I'm thankful that I "finished" my system right when the recession is taking full swing. Here's to hoping I don't have to sell any of it for some unforseen financial hit.
 
Michigan is in a very bad situation.

I'm a mechanical engineer and work for a tier 1 automotive supplier (about a 4.5 billion dollar company). I don't think that there's a single automotive engineer out there right now that is not afriad of loosing their job. I know I'm concerned.

Last April my company eliminated 8% of their North American work force. I'm praying that it doesn't happen again this April (the begining of their fiscal year).

During the last three years, merit raises have been suspended for 18 month periods. My increases have been just over 2% for each of the last two reviews even though I'm exceeding my goals and expectations.

In spite of this, every morning I'm at work, I'm thankfull that I have my job no matter how much I dislike or like it that day.

I hope Michigan can recover from this.
 
Last edited:
Worse than recession or depression we are starting an irreversible paradigm shift which will leave the USA a third world country (very rich and very poor).

Thanks GWB, it would not of been possible without you.

As much as I dislike GWB, I do disagree with the above quote. There is no such thing as an "irreversible" paradigm shift, and I don't believe the facts bear out the statement. There has always been a segment of very rich and a segment of very poor in our society. With the prosperity that this country has seen over the last thirty years, I think even the poor today are much less so than they have been in the past. The middle classes are still the majority of the country and overall are doing very well, compared to say, the 1970's or the 1930's. Inflation is not in the double digits, as it was in the past. Credit is still pretty easy to come by compared to previous years. Unemployment is still very low over most of the country.

And the truth is, all of this is larger than one President. These are trends that take years to develop and are incredibly complex. The number of different factors that combine to affect these trends is staggering. To blame it on one President (incompetent as he may be in my personal opinion) is to take a very short-sighted and narrow view of the big picture.
 
Well, someone will have to pay for wars, and nowhere it's going to be the government, it's always the people.
 
As much as I dislike GWB, I do disagree with the above quote. There is no such thing as an "irreversible" paradigm shift, and I don't believe the facts bear out the statement. There has always been a segment of very rich and a segment of very poor in our society. With the prosperity that this country has seen over the last thirty years, I think even the poor today are much less so than they have been in the past. The middle classes are still the majority of the country and overall are doing very well, compared to say, the 1970's or the 1930's. Inflation is not in the double digits, as it was in the past. Credit is still pretty easy to come by compared to previous years. Unemployment is still very low over most of the country.

And the truth is, all of this is larger than one President. These are trends that take years to develop and are incredibly complex. The number of different factors that combine to affect these trends is staggering. To blame it on one President (incompetent as he may be in my personal opinion) is to take a very short-sighted and narrow view of the big picture.


I agree, Rich. I find it hard to believe that the myriad of issues facing this nation is one man's fault. If you want to blame someone, or something, blame our congress.

It seems that the popular thing to do is blame the president for all things wrong with the country.

Erik
 
One thing that confuses the heck out of me is the price of wheat going up substancially. So odd.
 
I've been without a full-time job for about 14 months--I have a degree and 20 years experience in my field, a folder full of recommendations, and a very diverse and creative portfolio, and yet, here I am--almost a year and a half with no full-time employment.

You tell me if we're in a recession, Joey...

I am amazed that someone as sensitive and intelligent as you can even ask such a question with a serious expression on his face. I'm actually sort of sorry for you, because you must be terribly insulated from the majority of American's by the wealth of your family to even entertain such a question.

Here's a little clue as to how things REALLY are going in the USA these days, Joey--Ask someone in the construction business what the ONLY growth segment has been in construction for the last 20 years straight--without fail, without stalls, without even much of a slowdown. The answer to that question should shock you, because it illustrates how our government REALLY views the populace of this nation. It is truly atrocious...

My best friend from college works for a major international institutional investment company, and he tells me that the fact of the matter is that the entire Mortgage industry in the US is literally teetering on the edge of collapse, and when (not if, but when) it caves in on itself, it will pretty much take the entire credit industry with it--banks, credit card companies, and ALL their associated business--stock markets, commodities markets, futures trading, the insurance industry--will essentially cause a huge chain reaction of collapse, all the way out to the Federal Reserve (which, by the way, is NOT "Federal"--it is a privately-held corporation, and it has almost NO "Reserve"--they sold most of their gold off over the last 30 years, and besides, we went of the Gold Standard in 1933, and our currency is now only backed by the good faith of our creditors).

Joey, you may be shopping for Rolexes right now, but if the mortgage industry tanks like it probably should (because it's completely out of control, and being operated by a bunch of delusional amoral megalomaniacs who honestly believe they can do no wrong), then unless you and your family are AlSaud wealthy, or Warren Buffett wealthy, or Ingvar Kamprad wealthy, you will probably be in the soup lines with the rest of the middle-class schmoes, because when it falls, it's pretty much going to take EVERYONE down, unless you are Carlos Slim Helú wealthy, or Lakshmi Mittal wealthy. If your net worth is less than 8 figures, and you're not heavily invested in on-hand bullion, those bank accounts and stock portfolios--no matter how fat--will be essentially meaningless. We're talking wheelbarrows of cash for grocery shopping here kids.

Now, please don't take this as some sort of attack on your fortune, Joey. I applaud your hard work, and I'm sure that you and your family have become so well-off by following the "American Dream". But what I am saying is that unless your family (and this goes for MANY of the folks on this list) is in the top 2 or 3 percent of the wealthy in the USA, you will be just as screwed as those of us in the bottom 25-50%.

The only difference is that we folks at the lower end of the strata are 1) better prepared to weather the storm, because we know how to hunt, fish, camp, garden, and scrape by; 2) we are not insulted from the obvious and impending (and slowly materializing) collapse, by wealth and privilege--we are all watching our friends and relatives get their hours and benefits cut, or getting laid off completely, or have their retirement plans raped and liquidated, or having our homes foreclosed on by panicky, greedy banks, or seeing our children's schools literally falling apart, because there is no money to fix them, or watching generations-old businesses being sold because they can't compete with Chinese-product-peddling MegaStores, only to be replaced by companies who don't care about their employees, customers OR the community; and 3) We don't require much outside help to maintain a lifestyle that we can endure, because we currently don't have such luxuries anyway...

The good faith of our foreign creditors is floated primarily on the stability and stength of the American credit system, and if our own system falls, all those foreign debts will be called in--essentially our Government will have its loans foreclosed on, and I'm sure you know what that would mean.

Don't think such a collapse can happen? Neither did the people of a certain Bavarian industrial and financial super-power in Europe at the beginning of the 20th century. They were actually carrying wheelbarrows full of cash to do their grocery shopping because their economy was so ruined. Luckily for them, they had a strong government come into power in the mid 1930's that revitalized their economy with increased military spending, public work projects, lots of corporate croneyism, and a massive program of incarcerating people in the general population for "crimes against the State". But luckily for the rest of the world, they were defeated in a big war...

Hey, wait a minute, those strategies for economic stimulus sound sort of familiar... ;)

So, you tell me if we're in an f-ed up economy, Joey. The average American employee gets less vacation, lower benefits, and has less job security, than a similarly-skilled and experienced employee had 50 years ago, and to ad insult to injury, probably has NO retirement or pension plan, putting his/her future in an even more bleak position. Our generation (those of us between the ages of 40 and 50) are the FIRST generation in the history of our nation to NOT be guaranteed a chance to be financially better-off than our parents.

You tell me, are we in a recession?

I, for one, already have a plan in place, for retreating with my sweetie and some VERY close, hand-picked friends, to my father's farm in WV--60 acres of nearly-impossible-to-access property with our own wells, our own generators, very-soon-to-be completely off grid Solar system, and enough ammo, water, and fuel stockpiled to hold out for about 2 years...

Yes, it is that bad. Or at least it's bad enough that people in the know are already preparing for it. Why do you think Gold is as high as it has ever been historically--because people are stockpiling it. Why are security systems the number one improvement being made on new homes? Why are foreclosures at an all-time high?

If you're not already heavily into gold, I'd suggest looking into it (and i don't mean shares in mines, or futures, I mean bullion, because among certain classes, gold ALWAYS has purchasing value). If you're not in a financial position to get into gold then I'd REALLY suggest investing heavily in "prefabricated lead"-- and I mean bullets and shotgun shells, because they will be more valuable than "money", apre le deluge...

My suggestion to you would be to forget the new Rolex and get some land out in the country, a fat stockpile of ammo and Gold and Silver Bullion, get proficient with a firearm, learn about solar power and bio-diesel, and pray to whatever deities you revere, that you never need to use those skills.

BTW, the answer to the "construction growth" question is "Prison Construction". Yup. In the USA, the ONLY segment of the construction industry that has experienced continuous grown for the last 2 decades is Prison Construction.

The USA is currently NUMBER ONE in terms of incarcerated people per capita--more than China, more than North Korea, more than even the USSR at the height of it's power. Does that bolster your faith in our government's concern and compassion for it's citizenry?

Now you tell me, bro--is our economy on the edge?

--Richard
 
Last edited:
Now you tell me, bro--is our economy on the edge?

--Richard

My brother and I just swapped books. He gave me a recent Lou Dobbs book, I gave him Bill Richardson's "Leading by Example". On top of this I've been listening to some of Dr. Ron Paul's observations.

Nafta never recieved the modifications over the years it's original supporters championed, big money fought reform every step of the way as the wealth of this country was sold out. The trade imbalance with China under Bush/Cheney is stark raving maddness compared to anything before it.

Look at the price of gold, it has gone up in direct relationship to the US dollar going down in international markets. The $100 a barrel for oil is just because the dollar is becomeing worthless on the international market, oil in Euro's is only slightly up by comparision.

Wake up, look around and put the sheet back over your head.

What made the USSR fail? Run away spending which Ronald Reagan helped fuel in an arms race, but more importantly maintaining a super power empire including wars around the world (like Afghanistan).........sound familiar?

There will be a shift, wait and see.

There is no democracy only world wide corporatism.

............................................................................................

A few debates ago Ron paul brought up that the US national debt and spending has cause "Energy Inflation", and that the cost of oil in Euro's has not gone up as much as it has in US dollars. Dr. Paul also said the price of gold has risen as the value of our dollar has dropped just as one would expect it to.

The chart below is from 2005, it's now 2008. How long will everyone but Ron Paul keep ignoring this as an issue?

February 23, 2005
The Real Threat Coming from Iran
Posted by Casey Khan at February 23, 2005 12:47 PM
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/007485.html
Oil.jpg

Since October 10, 2002, the day of congressional war authorization, NYMEX Crude has advanced 74% in dollars, while only 31% in euro. This divergence shows just how weak dollar purchasing power is becoming. The current crude rally in dollars is not so much evidenced by extreme crude demand as it is depreciation of the dollar against the commodity.

..........................................................................................

FYI: free book in pdf form.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1575290&posted=1#post1575290
Hey all, quick update of a finding of a book I'm now currently reading:

I already own Ron Paul's book on foreign policy, A Foreign Policy of Freedom. I have an electronic copy of his most recent, Pillars of Prosperity. But on the 200th anniversary of the constitution (more than 20 years ago), Ron Paul wrote the book Freedom Under Siege. I find this book interesting because it is not like the previous two that I've been reading, which were mostly a collection of all his speeches made in congress. This book is Ron Paul, written more than 20 years ago, speaking directly to the book reader. He touches a lot of his inner beliefs, like how morality fits in with government and the sources that have influenced a lot of his views (quotes a lot of Mises and history in general). Much more personal than his speeches in congress. I actually enjoyed reading the critique of the absurdness and hypocrisy of the draft. There's also a lot of monetary policy too (like always). I think what is most remarkable about his book is that what he has been saying and writing 20 years ago, is still relevant (maybe even more) when read today. Compound that with the fact that he has been saying the same thing, never straying from his principles- I'm really beginning to see Ron Paul as a statesman, because he sure as hell doesn't portray your average politician.

Here's a free copy for those who are interested:
http://www.mises.org/books/freedomsiege.pdf

I think I already posted his Pillars of prosperity link earlier in this thread.

I believe there's another book on economics that ron paul wrote a while ago with someone else. I think it's called The Case for Gold. I'll probably check that one out next.

Has anyone on this forum been reading any of his books?
 
Last edited:
George - The price of oil has gone up at a rate 5 times faster than the fall of the dollar to the euro. There is not a direct 1:1 relationship. I watch the euro/dollar relationship closely as I spend 2/3's of my time overseas.

And for fighting in Afghanistan when you are Russia is the same as the US fighting in Mexico...not too far away.

I dont think it is the end of the world yet. Sorry for the guys out there who are having employment problems. Hopefully you can find something to do....anything really. I am thankfull for my job.
 
Last edited:
George - The price of oil has gone up at a rate 5 times faster than the fall of the dollar to the euro. There is not a direct 1:1 relationship. I watch the euro/dollar relationship closely as I spend 2/3's of my time overseas.

Okay, oil in American dollars is about five times the cost in the year 2001, right?

The price of oil in Euros is what, three times?

In British pounds maybe double?

I can't take the time to find out today to verify the guess above, but below is an article I found rather quickly, and it tells part of the story.

Currency evaluation and China owning part of the US debt are also factors.

Dollar Woes Take Sting Off Euro Oil Pain
By LAUREN VILLAGRAN
The Associated Press
Saturday, October 20, 2007; 6:49 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/20/AR2007102000393.html
A barrel of crude crossed $90 a barrel for the first time Thursday. The same barrel bought with euro looks like $63. Bought with British pounds, a barrel of crude looks more like $44. Other currencies have also appreciated against the dollar, giving fast-growing countries such as China and India a slight break. China's yuan has climbed 5 percent against the dollar from a year ago; India's rupee has risen 14 percent.

NOTE: When Clinton left office oil was at about $20 a barrel, experts said that was too low and would cause us problems later.
 
"My suggestion to you would be to forget the new Rolex and get some land out in the country, a fat stockpile of ammo and Gold and Silver Bullion, get proficient with a firearm, learn about solar power and bio-diesel, and pray to whatever deities you revere, that you never need to use those skills"

Rich, I think you've been watching too many movies. I choose to live

my life optimistically in the greatest country in the world.
 
"My suggestion to you would be to forget the new Rolex and get some land out in the country, a fat stockpile of ammo and Gold and Silver Bullion, get proficient with a firearm, learn about solar power and bio-diesel, and pray to whatever deities you revere, that you never need to use those skills"

Rich, I think you've been watching too many movies. I choose to live

my life optimistically in the greatest country in the world.

I agree. It's still too early to say what's going to happen with the economy, especially with the elections rolling around. Back in '00 (or thereabouts) we saw the market slide big time right as Clinton was leaving office. Then we saw the Dow hit all time highs just this past year. That's just the way it is, everything comes and goes in cycles.

This is still the greatest country in the world.

Erik
 
Last edited:
Back
Top