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Thread: Placement options – Impacts of location, orientation and treatments

  1. #151
    Super User JonFo's Avatar
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    And the Diffuser stacked in front of a MiniTrap HF, along with a Minitrap on the side wall.

    Here we can see that there is a little better spread of the energy retained reflected by the diffuser. The Minitrap probably helping to smooth some of it out, as well as the closer positioning of the Diffuser to the Monolith.


    OK, but probably still too much energy being redirected back through the panel.
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    Jonathan

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    And the before and after views of the Low Frequency impacts of the Minitraps.

    Using a 200ms gate time, we can see the resonances affecting the bass region.

    First, the view without the two additional RT diffusers in the corner behind the Monolith.

    But note that the room already has: 4x Mondo’s in the rear + 4x Mini’s behind the screen and a Mondo over the center. So there’s already a good bit of benefit from all those traps.

    What this and the next show is the delta between nothing in the corner and adding a Mini HF behind the speaker and a regular mini on the side wall behind the speaker.
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    And post MiniTrap HF and MiniTrap. Nothing major, but it does reduce some of the resonances visible in the prior graph.
    The overall decay is improved from 100 to 500. with more original energy and less reverberant energy.
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    Finally, a waterfall metric taken with REW, showing the low frequencies, windowed to 300ms, of the right front Monolith taken from the main listening position at 6m.

    This shows the room effect to the max. And here we can see that decay is much improved over the non-treated environment.
    Still some work to do, which is why I still need to hang four corner TriTraps in the ceiling room corners and four Mondo traps along the side edges of ceiling and walls.

    Also, must use some Sub EQ to dial out the resonances at <23Hz.

    Overall, the improvement is great. Matter of fact, the EQ’s were so screwed up I had to turn most of them off after the trapping.

    This means I still need to rebalance the entire gain structure and re-do all EQ’s once I’ve finished the trap placements.
    So don’t take these graphs as the final word. It will hopefully get even better.

    But it is illustrative of how bad a even a ‘good’ room can be before treatments.
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    Default Mondo traps are amazing!

    Thanks to JonFo, DTB, Rich, Ethan and everyone else contributing to this thread.

    I placed my 2 Mondo traps in the corners of my room and out of incoherent muddy bass, I got nice 3-dimensional bass! Can't wait to get a couple more panels in the next few months for the other 2 corners to make it even more clear.

    When I rotated the mondo traps 180 degrees moved them behind the speakers to absorb the rear wave, it sounded like my amp was broken - the music was dead and flat. I got much better results moving the speakers into the room by another foot. Does this make sense to anyone?

    Thanks,
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Matz View Post
    Thanks to JonFo, DTB, Rich, Ethan and everyone else contributing to this thread.

    I placed my 2 Mondo traps in the corners of my room and out of incoherent muddy bass, I got nice 3-dimensional bass! Can't wait to get a couple more panels in the next few months for the other 2 corners to make it even more clear.

    When I rotated the mondo traps 180 degrees moved them behind the speakers to absorb the rear wave, it sounded like my amp was broken - the music was dead and flat. I got much better results moving the speakers into the room by another foot. Does this make sense to anyone?
    Sure it makes sense as each room is different and each persons listening preferences and sound is different.

    Placement in the corners is great for helping to tame the low end problems of the room as you found out.

    Placement behind is a matter of if you like the results with absorption - some like diffusion - some like nothing. Results like Jon showed proves absorption is the best for "response", but it is your system and your likes that also have to be considered.

    Great way to start with just a few panels as you can afford. More later on in the other corners will help some more. I was able to do my corners from floor to ceiling.

    Dan
    .............

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Matz View Post
    When I rotated the mondo traps 180 degrees moved them behind the speakers to absorb the rear wave, it sounded like my amp was broken - the music was dead and flat. I got much better results moving the speakers into the room by another foot. Does this make sense to anyone?
    Well obviously it is because you didn't give them sufficient time to burn in. (just kidding)

    Absorption behind the panels can take a little bit of getting used to because it lowers the overall sound levels. You may need to turn your preamp up higher to get the same sound levels you were used to before. At first it may sound less lively, but I would say that what you are perceiving as liveliness is really just the excess energy of reflected sound and comb filtering that is ultimately damaging your imaging and soundstaging. There is no reason the sound coming out of the front of the speakers should be any less lively or have less frequency response simply because it is not being augmented by the reflections from the rear wave of the speaker. Otherwise, how could box speakers be considered so dynamic and lively.

    If anything, your sound should be much clearer. You should get much more clarity and better imaging and soundstaging with absorption behind your panels vs. a flat wall and the inherent first order reflections. I would recommend giving it another try for a longer period and don't be afraid to turn the volume up. Put on some great vocal recordings or something that really shows off your system's imaging and see if you don't think there is a vast improvement.

    If you don't, that's alright. You will have proven that you prefer the sound of diffusion or a flat wall behind your speakers, in your room, with your system. Nothing wrong with that, and at least you will know for sure that you have it set up the best it can be for your preferences. As Dan says above and like many things in this hobby, it is very subjective and some people will just prefer one over the other. I know that after extensive testing of different methods, I couldn't go back to flat wall or diffusion behind my MLs. Absorption gives me the highest fidelity in my room and with my system.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  8. #158
    Senior Member Craig's Avatar
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    When I rotated the mondo traps 180 degrees moved them behind the speakers to absorb the rear wave, it sounded like my amp was broken - the music was dead and flat. I got much better results moving the speakers into the room by another foot. Does this make sense to anyone?
    My answer is based on theory from articles from variuos sources and not from any formal testing of my own. However, My own experiences seem to confirm these theorys for my room interaction and speakers setup.

    It shouldn't be surprising to hear better results from moving the speakers more into the room and away from the front wall. It changes the timing of when you hear the backwave after it reflects off the front wall in relation to the timing of the wave you hear from the front of the speaker panel. When you get this timing right it should help imaging, soundstage, tonal balance and seem more transparent. 4-5 feet work well. In this position you don't need as much absorption on the front wall but some does help. Especially bass traps in the corners of the walls and where the floors and walls meet. I would suspect the sound from the backwave needs to managed with speaker positioning in regards to timing rather than trying to absorb it to the point that the speakers become monopole speakers.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTB300 View Post
    Sure it makes sense as each room is different and each persons listening preferences and sound is different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Absorption behind the panels can take a little bit of getting used to
    I agree with both of these comments. A well-treated room can be almost an acquired taste, especially for people who are used to excess ambience. Without the echoes you're used to hearing, music is sometimes reported as sounding "flat and lifeless." I happen to prefer rooms on the dead side, because in my experience you actually get more ambience and reverb. Well, more of what's in the recording, since it's no longer masked by the small-room reverb and ambience created by your room.

    Maybe leave the panels there for a few days and see if you grow to prefer the sound. If not, you can always turn 'em back around and put them where you think they sound best.

    --Ethan
    I believe in Truth, Justice, and the Scientific Method.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
    I happen to prefer rooms on the dead side, because in my experience you actually get more ambience and reverb. Well, more of what's in the recording, since it's no longer masked by the small-room reverb and ambience created by your room.
    This has been my experience as well. I hear much deeper into the acoustical space that the songs were recorded in now that I don't have the excess ambiance generated by wall reflections.

    My father-in-law heard my system for the first time the other day. As soon as he walked into the room he noticed the difference in acoustics. The rest of my house is very live sounding and when you walk into the listening room it is a noticeable change -- much more quiet. Then I turned on the system and he was blown away by the realism of Rebecca Pidgeon's voice singing "Spanish Harlem" on the Audiophile Voices SACD. That track is absolutely stunning when your acoustics are right.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    This has been my experience as well. I hear much deeper into the acoustical space that the songs were recorded in now that I don't have the excess ambiance generated by wall reflections.

    My father-in-law heard my system for the first time the other day. As soon as he walked into the room he noticed the difference in acoustics. The rest of my house is very live sounding and when you walk into the listening room it is a noticeable change -- much more quiet. Then I turned on the system and he was blown away by the realism of Rebecca Pidgeon's voice singing "Spanish Harlem" on the Audiophile Voices SACD. That track is absolutely stunning when your acoustics are right.
    Completely concur.

    My house has Stucco interior walls and is quite reverberant (a mistake I won’t make on the next one, looks great, but is LOUD). When I walk into the theater now (which has drywall walls, but now treated) is like walking into this cocoon of silence. The room no longer has a strong ‘signature’. This in turn translates into the same effect Rich describes of just being transported into the music. And as Ethan notes, you hear the ambiance of the recording, not the room.
    Listening to the same disc Rich mentions is a total revelation of amazing sonic performance.

    It has also meant that the TriField soundfield my Meridian offers for 2Ch->multichannel is now substantially more pleasing than before, as it’s not fighting the room as hard.

    Getting used to the absence of the extra reverberation in the soundfield is a two or three day affair, but it is substantially clearer in the end.

    The loss of volume from the reduction in modal ringing seems like a loss at first (because we are very sensitive to volume differentials), but once you adjust the volume back up a bit, the clarity and balance is clearly much better.
    Jonathan

    System #45 (Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC)

  12. #162
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    Just finished hanging a pair of Corner TriTraps in the front of the room, as well as a pair of Mondo traps (corner version w/beveled edges) along the wall-ceiling junction.

    The TriTraps are a pain to install. But once up look (and work) great.

    The Mondos are big, and long, so hanging them from the ceiling is a two person job.

    Basically due to my ten thumbs hand configuration, it took most of the day (Ok, I took a nap too ).

    The resulting look is good. You’ll see when I post pics in a week or so.
    Jonathan

    System #45 (Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC)

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    I’ve been listening to several discs this evening now that I have some more traps in the room, and all I can say is WOW.

    I am very pleased with this investment!

    But I’m also very annoyed at myself for waiting this long to do this.
    Man, I’m hearing things in the recordings that were so obscured by the room effects that it’s a shame to have those past listening experiences be sub-optimal.

    I’ll say this again: Treat the room before you do anything, and I mean anything else in your system.
    Vista’s in well-treated room could sound better than Summits in an untreated room. I can almost guarantee that.
    Jonathan

    System #45 (Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
    Vista’s in well-treated room could sound better than Summits in an untreated room. I can almost guarantee that.
    Totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
    But I’m also very annoyed at myself for waiting this long to do this.
    You are going to say the same thing about the video once you get around to upgrading that antique projector of yours.
    Rich

    This comment is intended solely for educational purposes and should not be construed as conveying any express or implied warranty of fitness for any other purpose. Said comment constitutes merely the humble opinion of its maker and does not reflect the views of the MLOC or of ML, Ltd. YMMV. Trust your own ears.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Totally agree.



    You are going to say the same thing about the video once you get around to upgrading that antique projector of yours.
    Rich, you know it!

    I've seen several RS1 now, and man, I can’t wait for an RS2. But I still dig the old three-eyed dinosaur, for now. Just watched an HD movie and it's still pretty clean and sharp. Black-levels are, well black

    But the improvement in audio was my first priority. Trust me, I weighed $7k of treatments vs a $7K PJ pretty carefully, and decided audio was the priority.

    I'm very glad I did, the audio fest is still on this evening
    Jonathan

    System #45 (Monolith IIIx, Sequell IIb, SL3XC)

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