Crossover settings-Bass Management

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aford

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This is probably a subject that has been beat to death and beyond, although I have not been able to find an answer to my question. I am not and audiofile, but I am a really picky listener. I crave refinement, power and bass, and I hate boomy slopply base and smearing of the midranges.

I have
ML Clarity's up front,
Fresco center and surrounds and
Grotto sub.
My AVR is a Denon 3805.
DVD/CD Player is Denon 3910

Everywhere I see the guru's say you should set your crossover on your receiver to 80hz and unless the front speakers are total brutes or have on board power sources, they should be set to small.

However the setting where I get the best results with my set up and room are way off these theoretical best settings.

After much experimentation I found I get the best blend for both Movies and 2.1 music from setting the fronts to large, setting subwoofer to LFE only and the crossover frequency to 40hz. In theory I am asking too much of the Clarity's and not enough from my sub, but in reality I get the most refinement, balance and controlled punch out of this set up. And my base has not been sacrificed, only enhanced by this adjustment. I know one cannot be dogmatic about such matters, but it seems my setting are waaaaay off the mark of what is generally accepted in this industry as proper setting that will render accurate sound reproduction.

Can someone tell me why I get the best results from such non-conventional settings?

Has anyone else experienced a smiliar situtation with their set up?

Is there anyone who has Clarity's who has found this set up to work?

Is there anything in the nature of Martin Logan speakers to respond favorably to such a set up?

I would be greatful for this community's insight.
 
aford said:
This is probably a subject that has been beat to death and beyond, although I have not been able to find an answer to my question. I am not and audiofile, but I am a really picky listener. I crave refinement, power and bass, and I hate boomy slopply base and smearing of the midranges.

I have
ML Clarity's up front,
Fresco center and surrounds and
Grotto sub.
My AVR is a Denon 3805.
DVD/CD Player is Denon 3910

Everywhere I see the guru's say you should set your crossover on your receiver to 80hz and unless the front speakers are total brutes or have on board power sources, they should be set to small.

However the setting where I get the best results with my set up and room are way off these theoretical best settings.

After much experimentation I found I get the best blend for both Movies and 2.1 music from setting the fronts to large, setting subwoofer to LFE only and the crossover frequency to 40hz. In theory I am asking too much of the Clarity's and not enough from my sub, but in reality I get the most refinement, balance and controlled punch out of this set up. And my base has not been sacrificed, only enhanced by this adjustment. I know one cannot be dogmatic about such matters, but it seems my setting are waaaaay off the mark of what is generally accepted in this industry as proper setting that will render accurate sound reproduction.

Can someone tell me why I get the best results from such non-conventional settings?

Has anyone else experienced a smiliar situtation with their set up?

Is there anyone who has Clarity's who has found this set up to work?

Is there anything in the nature of Martin Logan speakers to respond favorably to such a set up?

I would be greatful for this community's insight.
Click to expand...

Hola...choose the frequency cut at 80 Hz (besides, this is a THX frequency cut too)...this does not mean that your clarities will not have low frequency at all...the roll-off of the crossover will start at 80 Hz. If the crossover is 12dB step, (typically) you will have 40 Hz at -12dBs...still low frequency info...happy listening,
Roberto.
 
Aford,
there are no "proper industry settings", at least not for what you have in your own equipment in your own environment. Look at any and all convention as 'a serving suggestion' much like a picture on a box of frozen food resembles (or more the case, doesn't) the actual contents.
An example with my own sub, which I was fooling around with today and has given the best results so far is this:
Preamp crossover @ 40 Hz
Sub amp crossover @ 40+Hz
Sub is positioned dead center between the speakers, on the same frontal face plane, turned around facing the (front) wall and the phase switch @ 180 deg.
Who woulda thunk? But this is what works for me in my space with my stuff regardless of any conventional or even "expert" advice.
One of the things to avoid is the convention of symetry in the visual aspects of the equipment and not focusing on the aural aspects of placement. Simply put, close your eyes during and after making adjustments and use those remaining senses to get where you want to go. You'll be surprised at the results, which may not look like the picture on the box but will sound so much better.
 
Aford,
I'm set up almost the same way you are. My mains are Odyssey's sub is a Descent and I have the same Denon 3910 as you.
I set my fronts 2 large.
I keep the sub crossover switch at 40 hz.
The phase switch at 90 degrees
The only difference is I don't use the LFE I use the line level
I listen to music in 2.1 and I'm happy with the results
 
I don't know whether it is a function of my room, my ML speakers, my Denon AVR or whatever, but the bottom line is my system sounds much better with the crossover set at 40hz. 60hz gets boomy and starts to smear the lower mids, and at 80 hz it's even worse. And if I turn down the intensity of the Grotto, it only drains the base out of the picture, which is not what I want. However at 40hz, everything comes into balance and the base seems bottomless when called upon. With these settings I don't hear audio components... I hear horns, strings, guitars, piano's and percussion as if I were there.

I love all good speakers regardless of brand, but I'm shamelesssly hooked on ML. They just "do it" for me. I'm sure you guys know what I mean or we probably wouldn't be posting messages here. Right?

Anyway, I guess I'm just impressed that the Clarity's, relatively small speakers, can handle so much low frequency info (40hz-100hz range) so well. Who would have known?

Thanks guys, for your valuable input. So at least I have the peace of mind I'm not going crazy, or that my ears are not necessarily lying to me.

Gracias a todos!
 
No problems with your settings at all. Some of my MLs at my store are setup using Denon equipment and I use similar settings to you.

For your reference, the standard of setting all speakers to small, crossover at 80, etc. is the THX standard for THX certified systems and THX films. It has nothing to do with the way YOU think your movies/music should sound :p

I imagine the combination fo your Clarities and Grotto sub sounds amazing.. you have the tweeters off for music right?
 
As I always say, trust your ears...also, regarding the frequency cut, if you are using an audio/video receiver, cutting at 80Hz, will make easier to adjust the low frequency domain in all the room. As you do know, with the Grotto i, you have a +-10dB control @25Hz. At this frequency, usually there are room resonances and you can adjust the right amount of deep bass energy that you want for better bass resolution distortion free. With the volume control, you can adjust the bass level easier than cutting it at 60Hz or less, why?...because you have level control that you don't have in your Clarities. The bass from your Clarities is good, but the Grotto i is much better. The distortion is another clue here. Your Grotto is cleaner, because of the servo system built in them. 300 watts power amp for clean bass. But experiment yourself and choose the one that you liked most. Happy listening,
Roberto.
 
Odysseys/descent @ 40Hz w/ LFE w/ speakers set to large... Hmmm....keep seeing that 40 Hz X-over setting. With this setting on the descent & processor - music is perfect and the sub just kind of appears in movies.... You don't think anything is really happening - and then the windows start to vibrate.... For me - this seeting allows the sub to disappear - and still give me some boom for movies......
 
roberto said:
As I always say, trust your ears...also, regarding the frequency cut, if you are using an audio/video receiver, cutting at 80Hz, will make easier to adjust the low frequency domain in all the room. As you do know, with the Grotto i, you have a +-10dB control @25Hz. At this frequency, usually there are room resonances and you can adjust the right amount of deep bass energy that you want for better bass resolution distortion free. With the volume control, you can adjust the bass level easier than cutting it at 60Hz or less, why?...because you have level control that you don't have in your Clarities. The bass from your Clarities is good, but the Grotto i is much better. The distortion is another clue here. Your Grotto is cleaner, because of the servo system built in them. 300 watts power amp for clean bass. But experiment yourself and choose the one that you liked most. Happy listening,
Roberto.
Click to expand...

I agree with Roberto. Although i initially did not believe in the THX settings, i am believer in it now. My room is small and i have Vantage front towers...along with Stage. My receiver is Denon AVR 4306. IMHO, even with the Vantages self-amplified woofer, it is no where nearly as effective at low frequencies as my old Grotto (non-i). With music, i sometimes will set it at 40Hz, but for movies, the Vantage's woofer was lacking in "oomph" and deep bass that you must have in movies. With my new Depth i, there is no comparison. Thus, i have set my crossover at 80 Hz for Depth i and 60 Hz for the Vantages (just because i can!). :D My Vantages are set to SMALL btw. My Stage and Vignettes are at 80 Hz...all set to SMALL.

For music nowadays, i turn off everything and just use the Vantages at full range (LARGE). I am using only 2-channel music...i have not ventured into SACD. For me, i find that adding a subwoofer to 2-channel music kinda colors the low end too much...in other words, it adds more low-end punch than what the original musician wanted. The Vantages, for music, amplified woofers are just perfect for 2-channel music IMHO.
 
Thai said:
...
For music nowadays, i turn off everything and just use the Vantages at full range (LARGE). I am using only 2-channel music...i have not ventured into SACD. For me, i find that adding a subwoofer to 2-channel music kinda colors the low end too much...in other words, it adds more low-end punch than what the original musician wanted. The Vantages, for music, amplified woofers are just perfect for 2-channel music IMHO.
Click to expand...


This is a sure sign that something is not configured right. A well balanced system should support 2.1 or 5.1 seamlessly.

I always recommend first balancing levels on each channel, then doing a full check with 5.1 sources (test discs like Avia), and if using multichannel audio (DVD-A SACD), even more testing, as those can have bass management issues. Finally, I recommend using a stereo test CD to validate 2 channel performance.

In all cases, the balance of speakers to sub should be correctly managed by the processor. If your processor lacks the ability to adjust sub trims, or other key controls, then I can understand why people would switch off subs for 2ch.

This clearly takes a lot of effort, some test gear, and equipment with the right tuning controls.

Again, a well configured system with a quality sub (like the ML's) should sound very clean in 2.1.
 
bober said:
I imagine the combination fo your Clarities and Grotto sub sounds amazing.. you have the tweeters off for music right?
Click to expand...

******************************
Hello Bober

I am ashamed to admit that I have not yet experimented with the nac tweeters off. Firstly I've just been trying to nail down this base management issue. Secondly, normally while I am listening to music or DVD performances my wife is in the adjacent kitchen also enjoying the music so I don't want her to miss out while I rob her of treble.

Furthermore, after having spent much more $$$$ on speakers than most any wife could justify, the last thing I need is an acusation that the speakers don't sound good. I could explain that it's just because the NAC is off and that if she were only listening in front of the speaker and not in the side kitchen it would be different, but I don't think the message would entirely compute.

I will get around to it soon and see if it makes a difference in my room.

And by the way I must say that I really enjoy the Grotto. Low distortion is key. Servo subs are the only way to go. Smooth yet authoritiative. Anybody who's on the fence, don't hesitate to spend the extra dough and go for the gusto. I went from a humongous 15 inch 500 watt Infinity sub to this little 350 watt Grotto, and my base now is 8 times better and more realistic than before even with the base management issues I was fine tuning. And my wife was so happy to get that Infinity monolith out of her sight. Pound per pound, Servo is king. The only non servo's I would consider are the Velodyne SPL series. It's as close to servo as you can get and it also has a high WAF rating.
 
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