New Martin Logan owner... what to buy?

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rudyslb

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Haymarket, VA - USA
Hello all,

I'm replacing my current speakers and have decided to go with Martin Logan.
However, still not decided which ones.

I use my system for 70% HT, and rest music.
I'm leaning towards the Vantages with Motif as center speaker.

I do however have a few doubts that are making my choice a bit harder:

1. I planning to use them with my current AV amp (Denon 3808, 7x130w). Is this a decent match to Martin Logan speakers, or should I forget buying ML speakres until I can also get a better amp?

2. Since I already have a Sub, should should I go with the Vistas instead?

3. To match my current amp should I simply got for something like the source or purity?

4. Should I bi-amp the Vantages (or Vistas)?

I really want to get the Vantage (or maybe the Vistas), but I only have listened to them with good amps (Krell), so I don't know how they'll perform with my Denon.


Any advice from Martin Logan owners out there?

Thanks
Rodrigo
 
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Hello all,

I'm replacing my current speakers and have decided to go with Martin Logan.
However, still not decided which ones.

I use my system for 70% HT, and rest music.
I'm leaning towards the Vantages with Motif as center speaker.

I do however have a few doubts that are making my choice a bit harder:

1. I planning to use them with my current AV amp (Denon 3808, 7x130w). Is this a decent match to Martin Logan speakers, or should I forget buying ML speakres until I can also get a better amp?

2. Since I already have a Sub, should should I go with the Vistas instead?

3. To match my current amp should I simply got for something like the source or purity?

4. Should I bi-amp the Vantages (or Vistas)?

I really want to get the Vantage (or maybe the Vistas), but I only have listened to them with good amps (Krell), so I don't know how they'll perform with my Denon.


Any advice from Martin Logan owners out there?

Thanks
Rodrigo

Hola Rodrigo and Welcome...I am going to answer you with my heart and ears..
1) The Vantages are easy to drive...their sensitivity is 92dBs/2.83V/m. In other words, you are allow to use low power amps to drive them...now here is a catch, quality watts are better than quantity watts. Any Martin Logan will show this. I have customers that are using Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, Sherwood, etc. with ML with no problem and they are very happy with the results...even that they do know that a better amp will make a difference in sound for better.
2) The Vistas are great speakers, but the Vantages are better to my ears because of the woofers power amps built in ...I do like this feature very much.
3) The Source is the way to go if you have power amp...the Purity is the first full power hibrid electrostatic speaker on the market. You can use your computer, or an Ipod to drive them easy.
4) You can not bi-amp the Vantages!!! You can not disconnet their woofer's power amp.
(Si hablas español, mejor poder explicartelo, PM es la mejor forma, con todo gusto)...happy listening,
Roberto.
 
Hello,
I too had to decide between the Vista and the Vantage. Today, I finally pulled the trigger on the Vantages. Rodrigo, what kind of sub do you have? If it is not quite good, you might want to take it out of the equation. My brother is running dual pairs of Ascent i's with a Descent i and the difference between the Descent and his prior sub (Paradigm PW-2200) was nothing short of amazing. I used to own a pair of Aerius i's and tried to make my sub integrate with them. I finally gave up. As to using a receiver, I would recommend not playing too much opera or anything which is primarily high frequency. It is in the upper frequency range that the ohm load becomes taxing. By taxing, I mean 1.2 ohms at least for the Vista's at 20khz! It is not watts to be concerned about, it is the current.
Cheers,
Mark
 
I've discovered that the Logans like power. I drone mine with a 100/200 watt amp and they were fine nothing wrong with the sound as far as I could here.

This past week I have the opportunity to audition a Classe 2200 200/400 watt.
the difference was amazing. I did not expect what i heard at all. The bass was much more controlled, and the vocals really stood out on the higher frequencies. Before the bass would sometimes seem to clutter the vocals on demanding passages.

My favorite song for bass performance, and vocals is Celine Dion, "These are special Times" track one. I just love that organ.

I've since sold my amps and bought a Krell KAV2250
 
I've discovered that the Logans like power. I drone mine with a 100/200 watt amp and they were fine nothing wrong with the sound as far as I could here.

This past week I have the opportunity to audition a Classe 2200 200/400 watt.
the difference was amazing. I did not expect what i heard at all. The bass was much more controlled, and the vocals really stood out on the higher frequencies. Before the bass would sometimes seem to clutter the vocals on demanding passages.

My favorite song for bass performance, and vocals is Celine Dion, "These are special Times" track one. I just love that organ.

I've since sold my amps and bought a Krell KAV2250

Hola...yes, ML likes power in older models, and of course quality watts are better than quantity. The new ML line is an exception...their sensitiviy is 92 dBs...Aeon are 89dBs/2.83V/m. This means that you need twiece power to drive them than the Vantage playing at the same sound presure level. +3 dBs= twice power increase. Happy listening,
Roberto.
 
Isn't the problem really the panel and not the woofer? Someone here with summits got a big improvement when he switched to five or six hundred watt monos, I forget which. Same deal thought it was fine until he heard them with more powerful amps.
 
Just a thought - are the amps of which you speak better as well as more powerful. The differences you hear are not necessarily that of more power, but that of a better amp, period.

That said, 'logans do like their power, it's just that they need quality watts, not quantity (as said by Roberto).
 
Amey,

I would say both are important. The Monarchy audio se 100 is no slouch. I was happy with the overall sound of that amp. I wanted tubes so I started to ask around and. I was by some that the Logan would present a difficult load for most tube amps and that despite the rating they played better with lots of power. I decided to give the classe a try. I did not like the highs of the classe as much as the monarchy, but I could not believe the controll the amp had over the speaker. The dynamic range was incredable! I sold the monarchy and purchased a krell. I chose the krell based on what I remember it sounding with the logans.

The panels dip to 1.5 ohms the amp has to be able to deal with that or you will loose information. The manual on my Logans state tha the amp watts should double with each drop in ohms.
 
I agree with Roberto.

For me, i have found that my Denon 4306 (also 130W x 7) does a good job powering my Vantage, Stage, and Vignette speakers (5.1 HT). After about 3 hours of movies, the Denon gets warm to slightly hot, but never went into any safe mode. I do have a fan blowing on the Denon AVR. I am not sure about 3808, but my 4306 internal amps are pretty good according to the different reviews on the net. They can handle low impedance load. I am sure that the new 3808 can do the same.

Is my Denon 4306 internal amps as good as good separate amps? No, but it's more than enough for my ears. See the following test results.

Here's the test result on the 4306 at Audioholics: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/denon-avr-4306/avr-4306-measurements-and-analysis

According to above, the internal amps on 4306 can put out: 150W x 2 at 8-ohm, 240W x 1 at 4-ohm.

And the nice thing is that the 4306 can be used as a pre-amp in the future if i decide to get a separate amp...and it's a damn good pre-amp.

According to this review: http://alatest.com/apps/reviews/1616806/-1/Receivers+&+Amplifiers/Denon+AVR-4306/

4306 can put out: 140W x 2 at 8-ohm, 120W x 5 at 8-ohm, 235W x 2 at 4-ohm, 180W x 5 at 4-ohm (all channels driven)

So, for 2-channel listening on the Vantages, the Denon should do good. For HT, the Denon should be more than enough for any movie, esp. if you get the Vantages (instead of Vista).

As for the "quality" of the wattage, i cannot say, but the reviews seem to be glowing for what the Denon puts out. Not a single negative aspect on the Denon sound.

The reason for all these specs? I believe that the 3808 uses similar (or even better) internal amps and processors as my old 4306. Therefore, i doubt that your 3808 will have much trouble driving the Vantages.

Good luck with your purchase(s).
 
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I agree with Roberto.

For me, i have found that my Denon 4306 does a good job powering my Vantage, Stage, and Vignette speakers (5.1 HT). After about 3 hours of movies, the Denon gets warm to slightly hot, but never went into any safe mode. I do have a fan blowing on the Denon AVR. I am not sure about 3808, but my 4306 internal amps are pretty good according to the different reviews on the net. They can handle low impedance load. I am sure that the new 3808 can do the same.

Is my Denon 4306 internal amps as good as good separate amps? No, but it's more than enough for my ears.

Here's the test result on the 4306: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/denon-avr-4306/avr-4306-measurements-and-analysis

And the nice thing is that the 4306 can be used as a pre-amp in the future if i decide to get a separate amp...and it's a damn good pre-amp according to Audioholics.

I believe that the 3808 uses similar (or even better) internal amps and processors as my old 4306. Therefore, i doubt that your 3808 will have much trouble (if any at all).

Thai,

It will sound just fine, most people will be happy with the sound. But I will
bet you will have a different view as I did once you try an amp that can handle the speaker with authority.
One week ago I would have agreed with Roberto also.
 
Thai,

It will sound just fine, most people will be happy with the sound. But I will
bet you will have a different view as I did once you try an amp that can handle the speaker with authority.
One week ago I would have agreed with Roberto also.

Hola...you are not reading me...older models, like yours need both, quality watts and at least 100 Watts per channel. The new models, with the new xstat panels, they do not...only quality watts. Why? Sensitivity is the clue. To have the same sound presure level that you are use to listen, with the new models you need less than the half power...this is a new superb specification and a super great feature on the new ML line. Now I have a very happy customers with only 50 Watts power amps per channel, of course in small rooms. Also, if you read the golden ears, they do like the sound of the small power amps usually than the bigger brothers...with the new ML line, you can use these amps and have all the benefit of their warm and natural sound. Remember that we are not talking regarding the quantity of bass, midrange or highs, we are talking of the size of the instruments, timbre, stage, and the heart of the musician(s) playing for you. Now here is a golden rule that I used to say here, until some of you got tired of it: "trust your ears"! With the new xtat models now we have more toys to play with, because as you are saying, older models need juice!...I agreed with this...but not for the new models like Vantage, Summits, Purity...did you know that Purity has a sensitivity of 95 dBs!!! These are the first full power hibrid electrostatic, and you can use an Ipod to drive them or your computer will too...so this is why I am saying that with the new line, you could try less power...and quality watts are better than quantity watts...it is not my intention to impose myself, it is just to open all of you to another possibility that was denied to us (martin logan users) in the past. I have Summits with only 30 watts per channel (tubed) singing very nice...and far better than, (again this is my liking and not necessay yours) more powerful units...try them, you might like this too...but remember, only with the new Martin Logan line with xtat panels...happy listening,
Roberto.
 
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Hola...you are not reading me...older models, like yours need both, quality watts and at least 100 Watts per channel. The new models, with the new xstat panels, they do not...only quality watts. Why? Sensitivity is the clue. To have the same sound presure level that you are use to listen, with the new models you need less than the half power...this is a new superb specification and a super great feature on the new ML line. Now I have a very happy customers with only 50 Watts power amps per channel, of course in small rooms. Also, if you read the golden ears, they do like the sound of the small power amps usually than the bigger brothers...with the new ML line, you can use these amps and have all the benefit of their warm and natural sound. Remember that we are not talking regarding the quantity of bass, midrange or highs, we are talking of the size of the instruments, timbre, stage, and the heart of the musician(s) playing for you. Now here is a golden rule that I used to say here, until some of you got tired of it: "trust your ears"! With the new xtat models now we have more toys to play with, becasue as you are saying, older models needs juice!...I agreed with this...but not for the new models like Vantage, Summits, Purity...did you know that Purity has a sensitivity of 95 dBs!!! They are the first full power hibrid electrostatic, and you can use an Ipod to drive them, your computer will too...so this is why I am saying that with the new line, you could try less power...and quality watts are better than quantity watts...it is not my intention to impose myself, it is just to open another possibility that was denied to us (martin logan users) in the past. I have Summits with only 30 watts (tubed) singing very nice...and far better than, (again this is my liking and not necessay yours) more powerful units...try them, you might like this too...but remember, only with the new Martin Logan line with xtat panels...happy listening,
Roberto.

I'll have to accept that until I hear for myself.
But there is a Summit owner who claims that his speaker performed better with more wattage.

Roberto are you a dealer? If so where are you located?
 
From The Summit manual.

"What size amplifier should I use?
We recommend an amplifier with 100 to 200 watts
per channel for most applications. Probably less would
be adequate for our smaller hybrids or when used in
home theater where a subwoofer is employed. Our
hybrid designs will perform well with either a tube or
transistorized amplifier, and will reveal the sonic character
of either type. However, it is important that the
amplifier be stable operating into varying impedance
loads: an ideally stable amplifier will typically be able
to deliver nearly twice its rated wattage into 4 Ohms
and should again increase into 2 Ohms."

I'm sticking to my guns. The speaker I'm sure will sound fine but I would bet I'll like it more driven with more power, unless you listen to music that does not have an peaks in it. When those panels dip if the amp can't cope it will choke. Depending on the amp the degree of choking will vary.

I would love to do a comparison for myself with the Summits.
 
I'll have to accept that until I hear for myself.
But there is a Summit owner who claims that his speaker performed better with more wattage.

Roberto are you a dealer? If so where are you located?

Greg, first of all, I am a Martin Logan lover and user...I represent ML here in Costa Rica since June of 1987. I still have my first CLSs and the last CLSs with me. Regarding the power, I am not saying that the Summits could not sound better with more power, what I am saying is that with the new line, becasue of their sensitivity (skill to convert watts in sound presure level) you can use less than half of the wattage that you needed before!!, and this is only with the powered woffers models, like Vantage, Summits and Purity. I am in San Jose...if you need anything from this part of the world, I would be my pleasure to help!!!...my system now is the Motif in the center, CLSIIz as LR and Sonus Fiber Electa for rears. My power amp is a Sonic Frontiers model Power 2, and for the center I use a Bryston 2B...I have a receiver Sherwood model R-965 as a pre-power rears, and it is modified by me, I am an electronic Eng...sometimes my English is not too good, but I will try to explain better my points of view regarding the sensitivity. Remember that what the amps reads from ML is not resistance or inductance...it is capacitance. The panels acts line a big capacitor, and a high frequency, the load is like a short circuit, like 1 ohm in 20KHz, but the question here also is how much music is at this frequency?...and the load around 1Khz is around 30ohms in my CLSs, I do not have the impedance curve for the Summits or Vantages, but I think it would be almost the same...so the amplifier must have the skill to drive capacitive load, or what we would have is an unsteady circuit. This is why ML is a tool design in many power amps designers, like Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Mark Levinson, Krell, Aragon, Bryston, VTL, and many, many more...ML is not easy to drive, and it is good for us, as users, that many Electronic Companies use ML as a tool design. Trust your ears with the new line...I agreed with you that my CLSs needs juice to sing nice...otherwise I have to play them very low, just before clipping...happy listening,
Roberto.
 
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Roberto, good explanation, and your English is just fine, as a matter of fact your explanation I find very easy to understand. Thus the phrase that you "coined" ....."Quality watts" , is exactly correct, for unlike a conventional dynamic speaker our Logans actually 'present a load back to the amplfier' , thus the stability factor you mentioned.

Not trying to knock the "receiver set' here but no matter how good you think your Logans might sound being driven by a receiver there is plenty of improvement in the world of 'amp / preamp' combinations.
 
Roberto,

Sounds like a good excuse for a vacation:D

Love to have you here guys!!! and another reason to come here is that we have a National Theatre where good musician(s) play(s) for just a dime...so you can have live music unplugged!!! very easy:musicnote: ...happy listening and enjoy your ML sound!
Roberto.
 
Thank you all for your help... I'm excited about getting my new speakers :)

after reading everything written in here, I think I will go with the powered speakers, my wallet says Purity, my ears say Vantage. maybe the dealer will let me do an A/B comparison at home with my AV receiver.


What do you all feel about the ability to use the speakers in a large room? I plan to put the system in my living room (no WAF to deal with) which is large with cathedral ceilings.
Anything I can do to improve the sound, or increase the 'sweet spot'?
 
Thank you all for your help... I'm excited about getting my new speakers :)

after reading everything written in here, I think I will go with the powered speakers, my wallet says Purity, my ears say Vantage. maybe the dealer will let me do an A/B comparison at home with my AV receiver.


What do you all feel about the ability to use the speakers in a large room? I plan to put the system in my living room (no WAF to deal with) which is large with cathedral ceilings.
Anything I can do to improve the sound, or increase the 'sweet spot'?

don Rodrigo...the only way is trying them at your place...you don't know how they will perform...both models are great speakers...and the Purity has its own power amp, full range!!! you can drive them from the preamp outputs of your receiver with no problem...also you are allow to use power amp, but just as a signal feed...the power amp in the Purity will take care of the signal applied. Ask to your dealer a demo...and you can make the right decision with no problem...happy listening,
Roberto.
 

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