Vantage 2 channel amplification

Hello,

I have been in the market to renew my equipment for some time, and I fell in love with the MLs. Not only they match perfectly my musical taste, but they also look great! I'm looking to make my purchase soon as I'm now living in Chicago and will be relocating to Paris soon, and prices are much cheaper here than there...

I'm ready to go for a pair of Vantage, and I'm looking at the options to complete the system.

First, as a source I am thinking of the Transporter from SlimDevices. Any thoughts on this?

Then, for amplification, I really like the tube amps (I have an older CJ preamp). Would you have recommendations on this? I'm not looking for the "big" sound, and my system is going to be 2 channel. It is important for me to have a nice sound at low volumes. Also, I'm OK with either an integrated amp or separate pre/power amps. The integrated amp may have my preference if it makes it easier to find one unit instead of two on A'gon. As for the price range, I'm looking around the 3-4k$ tag price, used. And, looks matter, too.

Thanks a lot for your opinions, I've been browsing this forum and found the sum of knowledge and expertise here just amazing!

Olivier

Hi Olivier,
Being relocated to Paris, you may take this opportunity to consider a Jadis as your amplifier. Just check their web site http://www.jadis-electronics.com.
You might just find one in your price range on the used market.
Patrick

Jadis is a good choice. So is the newest McIntosh MC275 -- see my review http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?p=51508#post51508

The Vantage is perfect for tubes. It already has its own powerful SS amp(s) for the woofers - so you just need a good tube amp to drive the panels.

The Jadis Orchestra Reference is very nice and will drive the Vantages okay as long as you don't want to go too loud. If you want solid state try another French brand, Atoll Electronique. I owned an Atoll IN50 for some time and when I first took delivery of my Vantages, I ran these speakers with this amplifier. It was a good match.

When I later purchased Summits, I successfully drove these speakers with the Atoll for several weeks before I moved on to a (much) more expensive pre power setup.

further questions

Thanks for your input!

For the moment, I think I'll simply try for the MCIntosh, I've always dreamed of owing those. I'll still have a chance to try Jadis, Atoll and other European brands back there! :music:

So, I'm all ready to go for Mc C220 Pre, Mc275 Amp and a beautiful pair of Vantage.

I still have a few questions:

- Cables. Any advice on what to get? Perhaps I should simply look at the appropriate section of this forum.

- Power. Back to France, I'll power all these magical pieces of technology using a power transformer, I guess, as none of them is ready to receive 220V. Do you know how demanding they are in terms of power quality? Is it worth powering them with a regenerator?

Best, and thanks again,

Olivier

For the Vantage, you should change the power supply board before leaving the US. It will take some time to get it changed over here in France. And it will cost quite a lot of euros also. I went through this when I was back in France, coming from Canada. It took almost two months to get the power supply form my Ascents.

great combo!

Olivier said:

So, I'm all ready to go for Mc C220 Pre, Mc275 Amp and a beautiful pair of Vantage.

Click to expand...

I think both of these units can be ordered in 220V. Actually, you should call McIntosh factory, because they may both be easily converted either way. (800) 538-6576 If you are not worried about a warranty, there are some great deals on Audiogon -- in fact, when you talk to the factory, ask them if you buy from a dealer here, if your warranty will be good in Europe. If not, buy used! The MC275 MkV is the current model with a lead-free chassis and modern speaker binding posts. The MkIV is identical performance-wise, and a real bargain on the used market (I have a MkIV and frankly prefer the lead solder chassis -- adaptors can solve the old-fashioned binding post issue ;-) More info here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=54

Cables: Since both units support balanced (XLR) input/output, you should definitely use XLR interconnects. I prefer all Purist Audio Design products, but cables are such a contentious subject! Speaker cables should not have a lot of stranding (when used with electrostats) so I would avoid speaker cables by Kimber, Nordost, Audioquest, MIT, Monster, Straightwire, and others that use fine stranding.

Power quality is always important. A good regenerator will hold the voltage and can be used with amplifiers. Conditioners won't do either, so I avoid them. Both Exactpower and PS Audio make 220V models. I prefer the Exactpower, but the PS Audio is cheaper. You get what you pay for ;-)
.

getting the right power then...

thanks a lot to both of you for your contributions and guidance...!

i was really thinking of buying the equipment used. i don't care so much about the warranty, i'll be happy to save 25% on the equipment and help a seller renew his own system!

patlad, having the equipment rewired in Europe seems a bummer, i'd really like to avoid going through that, thanks for sharing.

ideally, i'd like to be able to get a transformer that also regenerates the power. this way, i wouldn't need to switch my 110v equipment to 220v and, who knows, perhaps i'll be back to the Americas sometimes! i am not sure this exists. looking at for instance:
http://www.exactpower.com/products/sp15a/specifications.html
the specs mention
"Available for worldwide use (for balanced 220/230/240 volt
configurations, until works as shielded isolation transformer
only)" but they also say that input voltage is 120 Vrms nominal.

so, i'm clearly not getting it. can i take a sp15a home for what i want?
can my dream of a box that will input my dirty 220v from my old Paris wires and output a clean 110v for my USA born gear come true??

Edit: I actually just found that the PS Audio P300
http://www.psaudio.com/products/p300.asp
accepts both 120 and 240 power inputs, and delivers a nice clean stable 115V. Now, here comes the next question, with just 300 Watts of output, is it realistic to power both Vantage, Mc C220, Mc275 and who knows a DAC too? I actually realize that I don't know what power these need as their input!

Edit 2: I just discovered that both the C200 and the MC275 accept 220V input! this is clearly going to make my life with these so much easier. given that the mls subs require 140W max each and the C200 needs only 30Watts, i could probably power both with a P300.


Olivier

Olivier,

ML will not perform voltage conversion on any speakers unless you have owned them for at least 6 months. Step down converters would provide 120V but it would still be 50Hz. US units need 60Hz.

A power regenerator such as the older PS Audios would do the trick. A P300 is too weak for Vantages, though. A Power Plant Premier will not step down the voltage but it may be able to generate 120V/60Hz from 120V/50Hz when used with a step down converter. You could call PS Audio to find out.

thanks for your input Ralfar,

I would like to buy the ML used, and to keep it 120V just in case I move back to North America some day.

I am wondering if a power converter can be just OK for the Vantage, I mean, it's only for the bass isn't it? I mean, I wonder how critical it can be to use a regenerator instead of a converter. The other option would be a pair of Vista + a sub, but that's another big box in the room!

cheers,

Olivier

nsgarch said:

Speaker cables should not have a lot of stranding (when used with electrostats) so I would avoid speaker cables by Kimber, Nordost, Audioquest, MIT, Monster, Straightwire, and others that use fine stranding.

Click to expand...

Interesting comment. I'm using Audoquest speaker cables now and they sound great; better than other brands I've tried. I don't think Audioquest speaker cables use fine stranding, as I agree that some of those cables that the Audioquest bested in my system were fine stranded.

Olivier, you and I are in the same boat since we both move to Europe with the intent to return to The States some day.

I can only repeat what "Jim" (Powers?) told me on the phone i.e. that US Logans like my own Vantages and Depth-i need conversion in order to work in Europe. It looks like ML designed a 60Hz lock into their US speakers in order to prevent European customers from buying in the US. (Jim did not say that, but that is my interpretation.) I think it is an insincere attempt to justify the inflated EU price for MLs...

And that six month rule is outrageous also. When I bought the Depth-i I had no idea that my employer would send me back to Europe less than six month later... Alright already, rant over.

Anyway, I am not sure if US Vistas would work on 50 cycles. It is possible but unlikely; call ML to confirm before you commit.

As far as powered subs: same prob as Vantages. So no, I'm afraid Vista plus powered sub won't work either.

Neil, what is it that makes stranded speaker cables inferior in your opinion? In other words, which physical properties make stranded speaker cables less suitable for ESLs than solid cores? Higher capacitance?

It wasn't my opinion, I learned this when enquiring about some ML speaker cable (yes, it's true! -- I reprinted Jim Powers' acknowledgement somewhere in the MLC forum, I'll try and find it) I'll also try and find the info on why multistranded cable (a few strands are OK as I recall) is not compatible w/ stats.

ralflar said:

Neil, what is it that makes stranded speaker cables inferior in your opinion? In other words, which physical properties make stranded speaker cables less suitable for ESLs than solid cores? Higher capacitance?

Click to expand...

OK, I found it. Here's an excerpt from an email I got from a ML dealer who sold the ML "Music Charge" cable when it was available:

Hello again,

OK, well, hmmmm....let's start with basic ideas. Generally speaking, most amplifiers are designed around the use with reactive loads. i.e. Dynamic speaker systems. As such, many popular brands of cables use stranded designs which can work very effectively. The stranding adds a bit of capacitance which loads the amplifier and, in general, results in a more musical sound. (Now, there are exceptions...like early Jeff Rowland amplifiers...but he was way ahead of his time)

Speakers like the Martin Logans or Magnepans are not dynamic. Electrostats and Isodynamics are far more capacitive in loads than reactive. Quite a bit more, actually.

As a result, using stranded cable designs with many amplifiers on these products results in a loss of definition at both extremes and a sort of bump in the low midrange....a sort of Grado phenomenon.

Therefore, I typically recommend the use of solid core designs with such speakers for optimum results. Certainly some designs with low strand counts can work very well...i.e. under 100 but that is a case by case experiment. The results are not price controlled at all but rather strand controlled. Obviously, once the right design is found, quality will matter. Much like diesel fuel...in the right vehicle, its great...in the wrong one and its a major repair bill and no performance.

The Martin Logan cable is a low strand design but not solid core like certain Audioquest. It was designed more for broad based applications of lower quality than you currently possess. Will it be better than what you are using...well, depends upon how your amplifier likes the number of strands in each design tested and if you are listening to the musical performance itself. If you are looking for spacial things on recordings that are multitracked.... I can't help you find things that don't truly exist. Those are fictions and anyone's guess is right.

I sense you listen to music...you picked up on the ML subs speed. Dont' forget to try 270 degrees. You might be surprised.

Well, back to winding down my time here in the midwest. I am leaving the business here and may start anew in Salt Lake City. Few folks appreciate knowledge...most want price. There little room for guys like us.

Lou Hamilton
Audible Elegance
www.audibleelegance.com

slowGEEZR said:

Interesting comment. I'm using Audoquest speaker cables now and they sound great; better than other brands I've tried. I don't think Audioquest speaker cables use fine stranding, as I agree that some of those cables that the Audioquest bested in my system were fine stranded.

Click to expand...

I agree with Steve; I am also running Audioquest.

Lee

Lee, as you can see, Audioquest was mentioned in the email I posted above, but I was going from memory (never a good idea in these matters ), so the info got a little corrupted, shall we say?

Kaboomnash said:

I agree with Steve; I am also running Audioquest.Lee

Click to expand...

No worries, I am a novice enthusiast and enjoy reading the opinions of others.

Neil, thanks, so it is indeed capacitance. It increases with cable length so there is another good reason for keeping cables short.

For my education, what is the capacitance of your cables? Mine are (not finely) stranded and have 26pF/ft (@1kHz).

cary after all?

patlad said:

Being relocated to Paris, you may take this opportunity to consider a Jadis as your amplifier. Just check their web site http://www.jadis-electronics.com.
Patrick

Click to expand...

hi Patrick, we're in the same boat, as you say. i actually found out that jadis amps sold here are 110v, not 220v compatible. can you confirm this? on the other hand, both mcintosh and cary are 110-220v compatible.

i have looked for opinions of cary users here but didn't found many of these. just one actually, and it's a very happy user! and ... in my fiancee's eyes, cary looks better than mcintosh... i must i agree with her on this one ... so i may change my mind and go for cary :meditate: after all. depending on feedback

following your recommendation, i contacted with ps audio to ask about different frequencies for input and input. i'll let you know their answer to this.

cheers!


olivier

Olivier,

You're right for the voltage of the Jadis sold in north america. The transformer would need to be changed if you bring one to France. But it would be better to buy it over here as Jadis is less expensive in France than in the US.